Feasting or Symposia?

[Lisa]

Could anyone point me to a good reference or else explain here what a typical Macedonian symposium was like? For example, what was the sequence of events? Aside from lots of wine, what was consumed? Would that have been olives and fish, mostly? Did "free ladies" really sit on the end of men's couches and sing and play instruments? I searched here under the word "food" but had little luck. Sometimes you see what appears to be paintings of the Macedonians hunting lions. Do you think they actually cooked and ate the lions, or was it just for the head to use as sort of a helmet? Did they recline on couches like other Greeks? Thanks!

[amyntoros]

We know that courtesans were (sometimes) present at Alexander’s symposiums because they were at the banquet in Persepolis. As for other descriptions of various banquets of Alexander, you’ll find most of them in Athenaeus’ The Deipnosophists. I’ve copied some excerpts below including one about Ptolemy that mentions meat and fish. Further quotes from Athenaeus can be found on Susan’s Alexander Sources site, although most of the remainder are about Philip or the Successors.

And, no, lions were not hunted as food, but for sport.

Athenaeus - The Deipnosophists Book I. 17 e – 18 a
In their gatherings at dinner the heroes sit instead of reclining, and this sometimes happened at King Alexander’s court, according to Duris. Once, at any rate, when he entertained nearly six thousand officers, he seated them on silver stools as well as on couches, spreading purple robes on the seats. Hegesander, too, says that in Macedonia it was not customary for anyone to recline at dinner unless he had speared a wild boar without using a hunting-net. Until then they must eat sitting. Cassander, therefore, at the age of thirty-five continued to sit at meals with his father, being unable to accomplish the feat, though he was brave and a good hunter.

Book III. 101 e - f
Lynceus, however, in his description of the dinner given by the flute-girl Lamia in honour of Demetrius Poliorcetes represents the guests as eating all sorts of fish and flesh the moment they entered the dining room. Similarly, in describing the arrangements for King Antigonus’s dinner, when he celebrated the festival of Aphrodite, as well as the dinner given by King Ptolemy, he says that fish and meat were served first.

Book III. 120 d - e
Crowding all the drinks at the beginning is a practice to be avoided, for they render it hard to absorb any additional moisture. But the Macedonians, as Ephippus* of Olynthus observes in his account of the funeral of Alexander and Hephaestion, never understood how to drink in moderation, but rather drank deep at the beginning of the feast. Hence they were drunk while the first courses were still being served and could not enjoy their food.

Book III. 124 c
Even the excellent Xenophon, in the Memorabilia, knows of the use of snow in drinking, and Chares of Mitylene, when he recounts the siege of the Indian capital Petra. He says that Alexander dug thirty refrigerating pits which he filled with snow and covered with oak boughs. In this way, he says, snow will last a long time.

Book IV. 146 c - d
Alexander the Great, every time he dined with his friends, according to Ephippus of Olynthus, in the book which describes the demise of Alexander and Hephaestion, spent one hundred minas, (1-1/2 talents) there being perhaps sixty or seventy friends at dinner. But the Persian king, as Ctesias and Dionon (in his Persian History) say, used to dine in company with 15,000 men, and four hundred talents were expended on the dinner. This amounts, in the coinage of Italy, to 2,400,000 denarii, which, divided among 15,000 men, make 160 denarii, Italic currency, for each man. Consequently it comes to the same sum as that spent by Alexander, which was one hundred minas, as Ephippus related.

Book IV. 155 c - d
Duris of Samos, in the seventeenth book of his Histories, says of Polysperchon* that whenever he was elated by wine he would dance, even though was rather old and second to none among the Macedonians either in military achievement or in general esteem; he danced continually, clad in a saffron tunic and wearing on his feet Sicyonian slippers. Agatharchides of Cnidus, in the eighth book of his Asiatic History records that whenever the friends of Alexander, son of Philip, entertained him at dinner, they encased everything that was to be served as dessert in gold; and when they desired to eat the dessert, they tore off the gold with the rest of the waste and threw it away, that their friends might be spectators of their extravagance, while their slaves enjoyed the profit. But these gentry had forgotten, what Duris also records, that Philip, Alexander’s father, possessed a gold cup weighing fifty drachms, and that he always took it to bed with him and placed it at his head.

Book IV. 171 b - c
Those who give the summons to come to the king’s table, as Pamphilus says, are called “table men,” from eleon, which means “meat-table.” But Artemidorus names them “dinner-summoners.” He further says that they used to call the foretasters “eaters,” because they ate before the king to ensure his safety. But in our day the “eater” has become the superintendent of the entire service; his office was distinguished and honorable. Chares, at any rate, in the third book of his Histories says that Ptolemy Soter was appointed “eater” for Alexander.

Book XII. 537 d – ?
Speaking of Alexander the Great’s luxury, Ephippus of Olynthus in his book On the Death of Hephaestion and Alexander says that in the park there was erected for him a golden throne and couches with silver legs, on which he sat when transacting business in the company of his boon companions. And Nicobule says that during dinner every sort of contestant exerted their efforts to entertain the king, and that in the course of his last dinner Alexander in person acted from memory a scene from the Andromeda of Euripides, and pledging toasts in unmixed wine with zest compelled the others also to do likewise. Ephippus, again, says that Alexander also wore the sacred vestments at his dinner parties, at one time putting on the purple robe of Ammon, and thin slippers and horns just like the gods, at another time the costume of Artemis, which he often wore even in his chariot, wearing the Persian garb and showing above the shoulders the bow and hunting-spear of the goddess, while at still other times he was garbed in the costume of Hermes; on other occasions as a rule, and in every-day use, he wore a purple riding-cloak, a purple tunic with white stripes, and the Macedonian hat with the royal fillet; but on social occasions he wore the winged sandals and broad-brimmed hat on his head, and carried the caduceus in his hand; yet often, again, he bore the lion’s skin and club in imitation of Heracles. What wonder that the Emperor Commodus of our time also had the club of Hercules lying beside him in his chariot with the lion’s skin spread out beneath him, and desired to be called Hercules, seeing that Alexander, Aristotle’s pupil, got himself up like so may gods, to say nothing of the goddess Artemis? Alexander sprinkled the very floor with valuable perfumes and scented wine. In his honour myrrh and other kinds of incense went up in smoke; a religious stillness and silence born of fear held fast all who were in his presence. For he was hot-tempered and murderous, reputed, in fact, to be melancholy-mad. At Ecbatana he arranged a festival in honour of Dionysus, everything being supplied at the feast with lavish expense, and Satrabates the satrap entertained all the troops. Many gathered to see the sight, says Ephippus; proclamations were made which were exceedingly boastful and more insolent than the usual Persian arrogance. For among the various proclamations made in particular, a custodian of munitions overstepped all the bounds of flattery and, in collusion with Alexander, he bade the herald proclaim that “Gorgus, the custodian of munitions, presented Alexander, son of Ammon, with three thousand gold pieces, and promised that whenever he should besiege Athens he would give him ten thousand complete suits of armour, the same number of catapults, and all other missiles besides, enough to prosecute the war.”

Best regards,

[Lisa]

Thank you, Amyntoros! Lots of interesting stuff there. So, amongst the Macedonians, only the very, very macho could recline at supper and being very, very macho had to do with killing a boar without a net, not necessarily a lion Still, I think that the tale of Thais is suspect because it appears that the burning of the palace was deliberate and premeditated.

Best wishes,
Lisa

[Aengus]

Lisa,

Re Symposia: In addition to Amyntros' refs, you might consider a flick through Plato's 'Symposium', which gives a reasonable idea of the conduct of a formal knees-up. It concludes with virtually everyone in a state of plastered unconsciousness. Aristophanes' comic plays also have some entertaining snippets on how a symposium could turn out. Sombre Plato or bawdy Aristophanes, they all agree on how much they liked their drink. How very very very much they liked their drink!

For a fun overview of the whole thing there is 'Fishcakes and Courtesans' published a couple of years back by a chap called Davison/Davidson, I think. Very readable with some quite outrageous anecdotes and debauchery.

To be fair, most of our understanding of symposia is based on what we know of the Athenians. Although there were probably rituals particular to the Macedonians, it's unlikely it differed hugely up north. I recall Lane Fox mentions dining clubs of sorts, but I'm afraid I'm too lazy to check sources for you.


Hunting in the Hellenic world is varied and complex. For a general overview that's quite short your best bet is to read Xenophon 'On Hunting'(Cynegeticus). He does talk a little about lions, but not much, and certainly didn't advocate pursuing them in the same fashion as the Macedonians. He preferred to see them poisoned or enticed into a pit. Having said that, his text indicates that lions were far more prevalent in the north than Attica, so it's probably not surprising that their method would differ from his. The hunting of boars was widespread. Antipater's son Cassander comes in for withering sneers because he took so long to nail his first. There was some debate here a couple of years back as to how widespread the practice was: ie a sport of nobles or commonplace. There were firm opinions on either side.


You're very brave to be sure of what happened that night in Persopolis. Contemporaries couldn't agree at all on how the whole thing kicked off, and to this day it remains a proper can of worms.

[amyntoros]

To be fair, most of our understanding of symposia is based on what we know of the Athenians. Although there were probably rituals particular to the Macedonians, it's unlikely it differed hugely up north. I recall Lane Fox mentions dining clubs of sorts, but I'm afraid I'm too lazy to check sources for you.

I agree in that it probably didn't differ hugely up north, although there do seem to be some small differences such as the already mentioned need to kill a boar in order to recline. Winthrop Lindsay Adams also remarks on the sounding of a horn at the end of the symposium. I don't know the source reference, but I've come to trust Adams ever since I was convinced I had caught him in an error and I turned out to be quite wrong.

The end of a banquet (not the beginning) was always announced by a trumpet call, probably because of the number of times feasting had been ended by a genuine call to arms to fend of a barbarian raid.

(In the latter part of the sentence he's referring to earlier times in Macedonia when her borders were not secure.)

Best regards,

[athenas owl]

Amyntoros posted some great bits from Athenaeus.

Here is one more. It is from a couple of generations after ATG and a wedding feast not a regular symposium, but it has some interesting tidbits, like food and drink (hot and strong...mulled wine? What could be stronger than undiluted Macedonian wine?)
It's from book 4.

In Macedonia, then, as I have said, Caranus made a marriage feast; and the guests invited were twenty in number. And as soon as they had sat down, a silver bowl was given to each of them as a present. And Caranus had previously crowned every one of them, before they entered the dining-room, with a golden chaplet, and each chaplet was valued at five pieces of gold. And when they had emptied the bowls, then there was given to each of the guests a loaf in a brazen platter of Corinthian workmanship, of the same size; and poultry, and ducks, and besides that, pigeons, and a goose, and quantities more of the same kind of food heaped up abundantly. And each of the guests taking what was set before him, with the brazen platter itself also, gave it to the slaves who waited behind him. Many other dishes of various sorts were also served up to eat. And after them, a second platter was placed before each guest, made of silver, on which again there was placed a second large loaf, and on that goose, and hares, and kids, and other rolls curiously made, and doves, and turtledoves, and partridges, and every other kind of bird imaginable, in the greatest abundance. Those also, says Hippolochus, we gave to the slaves; and when we had eaten to satiety, we washed our hands, and chaplets wore brought in in great numbers, made of all sorts of flowers from all countries, and on each chaplet a circlet of gold, of about the same weight as the first chaplet. [129] And Hippolochus having stated after this that Proteas, the descendant of that celebrated Proteas the son of Lanice, who had been the nurse of Alexander the king, was a most extraordinary drinker, as also his grandfather Proteas, who was the friend of Alexander, had been; and that he pledged every one present, proceeds to write as follows :-

[3.] And while we were now all amusing ourselves with agreeable trifling, some flute-playing women and musicians, and some Rhodian players on the sambuca came in, naked as I fancied, but some said that they had tunics on. And they having played a prelude, departed; and others came in in succession, each of them bearing two bottles of perfume, bound with a golden thong, and one of the crests was silver and the other gold, each holding a cotyla, and they presented them to each of the guests and then, instead of supper, there was brought in a great treasure, a silver platter with a golden edge of no inconsiderable depth, of such a size as to receive the entire bulk of a roast boar of huge size, which lay on it on his back, showing his belly uppermost, stuffed with many good things. For in the belly there were roasted thrushes, and paunches, and a most countless number of fig-peckers, and the yolks of eggs spread on the top, and oysters, and periwinkles. And to every one of the guests was presented a boar stuffed in this way, nice and hot, together with the dish on which he was served up. And after this we drank wine, and each of us received a hot kid, on another platter like that on which the boar had been served up with some golden spoons. Then Caranus seeing that we were cramped for the want of room, ordered canisters and breadbaskets to be given to each of us, made of strips of ivory curiously plaited together; and we were very much delighted at all this, and applauded the bridegroom, by whose means we wore thus enabled to preserve what had been given to us. Then chaplets were again brought to us, and another pair of cruets of perfume, one silver and one gold, of the same weight as the former pair. And when quiet was restored, there entered some men, who even in the Potfeast at Athens had borne a part in the solemnities, and with them there came in some ithyphallic dancers, and some jugglers, and some conjuring women also, tumbling and standing on their heads on swords, and vomiting fire out of their mouths, and they, too, were naked.

[4.] And when we were relieved from their exhibition, then we had a fresh drink offered to us, hot and strong, and Thasian, and Mendaean, and Lesbian wines were placed upon the board, very large golden goblets being brought to every one of us. And after we had drunk, a glass goblet of two cubits in diameter, placed on a silver stand, was served up, full of roast fishes of every imaginable sort that could be collected. And there was also given to every one a silver breadbasket full of Cappadocian loaves; some of which we ate and some we delivered to the slaves behind us. And when we had washed our hands, we put on chaplets; and then again we received golden circlets twice as large as the former ones, and another pair of cruets of perfume. And when quiet was restored, Proteas leaping up from his couch, asked for a cup to hold a chous; and having filled it with Thasian wine, and having mingled a little water with it, he drank it off, saying -
He who drinks most will be the happiest.

And Caranus said - "Since you have been the first to drink, do you be the first also to accept the cup as a gift; and this also shall be the present for all the rest who drink too." And when this had been said, at once nine of the guests rose up snatching at the cups, and each one trying to forestall the other. But one of those who were of the party, like an unlucky man as he was, as he was unable to drink, sat down and cried because he had no goblet; and so Caranus presented him with an empty goblet. [130] After this, a dancing party of a hundred men came in, singing an epithalamium in beautiful tune. And after them there came in dancing girls, some arranged so as to represent the Nereids, and others in the guise of the nymphs.

[5.] And as the drinking went on, and the shadows were beginning to fall, they opened the chamber where everything was encircled all round with white cloths. And when these curtains were drawn, the torches appeared, the partitions having been secretly removed by a mechanism. And there were seen Cupids, and Artemises, and Pans, and Hermae, and numbers of statues of that kind, holding torches in silver candlesticks. And while we were admiring the ingenuity of the contrivance, some real Erymanthian bears were brought round to each of the guests on square platters with golden edges, pierced through and through with silver darts. And what was the strangest thing of all was, that those of us who were almost helpless and stupefied with wine, the moment that we saw any of these things which were brought in, became all in a moment sober, standing upright, as it is said. And so the slaves crammed them into the baskets of good omen, until the usual signal of the termination of the feast sounded. For you know that that is the Macedonian custom at large parties.

And Caranus, who had begun drinking in small goblets, ordered the slaves to bring round the wine rapidly. And so we drank pleasantly, taking our present liquor as a sort of antidote to our previous hard drinking. And while we were thus engaged, Mandrogenes the buffoon came in, the descendant, as is reported, of that celebrated Straton the Athenian, and he caused us much laughter. And after this he danced with his wife, a woman who was already more than eighty years of age. And at last the tables, to wind up the whole entertainment, were brought in. And sweetmeats in plaited baskets made of ivory were distributed to every one. And cheesecakes of every kind known, Cretan cheesecakes, and your Samian ones, my friend Lynceus, and Attic ones, with the proper boxes, or dishes, suitable to each kind of confection. And after this we all rose up and departed, quite sobered, by Zeus, by the thoughts of, and our anxiety about, the treasures which we had received. But you who never go out of Athens think yourself happy when you hear the precepts of Theophrastus and when you eat thyme, and salads, and nice twisted loaves, solemnizing the Lenaean festival, and the Potfeast at the Anthesteria. But at the banquet of Caranus, instead of our portions of meat, we carried off actual riches, and are now looking, some for houses, and some for lands, and some of us are seeking to buy slaves.

[karen]

Wow........ how can I get invited to a party like that?



Karen

[amyntoros]

The translation quoted by Athenas Owl says this:

[3.] And while we were now all amusing ourselves with agreeable trifling, some flute-playing women and musicians, and some Rhodian players on the sambuca came in, naked as I fancied, but some said that they had tunics on.

The translation I used for Susan’s site was the Harvard University Press 1928 edition (reprinted 1957), translated by Charles Burton Gulick. This one says:

When we had at last pleasantly taken leave of all sobriety, there entered flute-girls and singers and some Rhodian sambuca-players. To me these girls looked quite naked, but some said that they had on tunics.

Amusing little example of how translations can vary, don’t you think?

Best regards,

[athenas owl]

Wow........ how can I get invited to a party like that?



Karen

Yeah, it gives the term "living large" an extra twist.

I think it might be one of the things that differentiate the Macedonians from their more southern cousins. In Jeanne Reames-Zimmerman's dissertation she talks about the potlatch and it's similarites to the Macedonian way of life. There might be some valid comaparisons. Alexnader certainly gave it away on a staggering basis. I just wonder how much like this party the symposia in eastern Asia would have been? Is this scale completely out of bounds for the norm, for larger events, anyway?

Amyntoros, I just saw your post....that's very good point. C.D.Yonge (1854) is my translation...those prissy Victorians!

[karen]

I bet the mass wedding at Susa was no less sumptuous per guest. People seriously blow the wad on weddings, to this day.

I've noticed the similarity between the potlatch and the Makedonian party for a while, in the idea of demonstrating status/wealth/power through the value of the gifts given. In that it's a kind of redistribution of wealth, I like it...

Non-prissily,
Karen

[amyntoros]

I've noticed the similarity between the potlatch and the Makedonian party for a while, in the idea of demonstrating status/wealth/power through the value of the gifts given. In that it's a kind of redistribution of wealth, I like it...

Ah, I wonder if you knew I was going to say "But ..." Sometimes I just can't help myself. But they weren't really redistributing the wealth at the big Macedonian symposiums because the persons present were already of a certain status or they wouldn't have been invited. I do see the resemblance to the potlatch, of course, but with the latter the whole community benefited. Although there are special occasions when Alexander shared some of his wealth with all his troops, I see that as a kingly practice rather than a Macedonian tradition. But that’s just my opinion.

Best regards,

[karen]

It was a more or less facetious comment, but when I think about it, if a guest at the king's party then held his own party to which he invited people of lesser wealth, and then one of them threw a party in which he invited people of lesser wealth, and so on... the custom in general actually could affect the fortunes of the entire community. Any reason to think that the same ethic wouldn't exist at every level?

Warmly,
Karen

[amyntoros]

It was a more or less facetious comment, but when I think about it, if a guest at the king's party then held his own party to which he invited people of lesser wealth, and then one of them threw a party in which he invited people of lesser wealth, and so on... the custom in general actually could affect the fortunes of the entire community. Any reason to think that the same ethic wouldn't exist at every level?

Quoting the Spartans' response to a message from Philip:

"If."



Best regards,

[Paralus]

[Quoting the Spartans' response to a message from Philip:

"If."

Always liked that one.

[amyntoros]

Quoting the Spartans' response to a message from Philip:

"If."

Always liked that one.

Me too. I think it’s a case of “opposites attract.” No one could ever describe me as having brevity of expression and I’m aware of frequent redundancies in my posts no matter how many times I’ve edited them before they finally make it on to the forum. I would need a brutal personal editor if I were to aspire to being laconic!

Here’s another favorite Spartan one word comment. It has no relevance to the thread, but I find it delightful.

Plutarch’s Moralia. Volume III. 233 E. Sayings of Spartans. (Various Sayings of Spartans to Fame Unknown.)
Philip wrote at the time when he entered their country, asking whether they wished that he should come as a friend or as a foe; and they made answer, “Neither.”

Best regards,