Alexander & the kopis

karen · Post by **karen** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:36 pm

Hi all -- especially experts on ancient images of Alexander:

Do you know of any ancient depiction of Alexander brandishing or wearing a kopis -- the curved sword ancient Greeks (and others) used? Here's a drawing with numerous examples of images of the sword in use -- http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=3598.

I don't recall seeing any image of Alexander using one -- does anyone else?

Warmly,
Karen

Tantalus · Post by **Tantalus** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:10 pm

Here's the message I get when I go to your link:

"You are not authorized to view, download or link to this Site."

-

karen · Post by **karen** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:33 pm

Well, fie upon them, then. Here's a pic of a modern reproduction, instead:

http://www.valiantco.com/world/Kopis.JPG

Warmly,
Karen

athenas owl · Post by **athenas owl** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:32 pm

Isn't the sword missing from many statues and carvings? I'm thinking about the Alexander Sarcophagus....and looks to the right at the statue on this very page...

Callisto · Post by **Callisto** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:38 pm

http://www.livius.org/a/1/alexander/ale ... aterus.jpg

I am not certain whether Alexander's sword is a kopis but the sword of "Craterus" is certainly a kopis, judging by its curved shape.

jasonxx · Post by **jasonxx** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:11 pm

Ive seen no pictures or statues at all with Alexander having a sword like that

karen · Post by **karen** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:33 pm

Athena's Owl wrote:Isn't the sword missing from many statues and carvings? I'm thinking about the Alexander Sarcophagus....and looks to the right at the statue on this very page...

He's got a straight sword in that statue. To see it from different angles -- http://www.1stmuse.com/frames/ -- "PORTRAIT" -- then scroll down the column of pictures on the left until you get to the four entitled "Neapeles, Nationalmuseum." The fourth pic shows the sword very clearly.

athenas owl · Post by **athenas owl** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:45 pm

karen wrote:
Athena's Owl wrote:Isn't the sword missing from many statues and carvings? I'm thinking about the Alexander Sarcophagus....and looks to the right at the statue on this very page...
He's got a straight sword in that statue. To see it from different angles -- http://www.1stmuse.com/frames/ -- "PORTRAIT" -- then scroll down the column of pictures on the left until you get to the four entitled "Neapeles, Nationalmuseum." The fourth pic shows the sword very clearly.

Thank you...I have never seen that statue at an angle to see the sword. Is that sword original to the copy?

Callisto pointed out the very good kopis on the Pella mosaic, though.

karen · Post by **karen** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:00 pm

Yeah, but the guy on the left is supposed to be Alexander, and the guy on the right has the kopis.

Of course he also has a straight scabbard... ever notice that? He's going to have a hard time sticking that sword back in that scabbard. Someone made an oopsie...

I don't know if the sword on the bronze statue is original... I assume it is. ??

athenas owl · Post by **athenas owl** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:11 pm

karen wrote:Yeah, but the guy on the left is supposed to be Alexander, and the guy on the right has the kopis.

Of course he also has a straight scabbard... ever notice that? He's going to have a hard time sticking that sword back in that scabbard. Someone made an oopsie...

I don't know if the sword on the bronze statue is original... I assume it is. ??

I am no expert on Macedonian swords by any means....it's just that that sword looks so Roman to me, Roman infantry at that. And very short to be truly useful on horseback.

The Greek swords I have seen picutres of have a leaf shape to them, not the Kopis, but the Xiphos....the one that Alexander is weilding on the statue seems not very efficient for slashing, more of a stabbing weapon...but again I don't know. Someone here who does will hopefully correct me.

In the mosaic, the Alexander figure has a spear, no?

amyntoros · Post by **amyntoros** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:10 pm

A kopis with scabbard was found in the one of the tombs at Aigai. Here’s the blurb from the catalogue (with articles) accompanying the Onassis exhibition in New York.

The kopis is a type of sword with a slightly curved blade and only one cutting edge. Normally it was used by warriors fighting on horseback, which is why it was a favorite weapon of the Macedonians, who were well known for their equestrian tradition

The example here, which belonged to a Macedonian cavalryman from Aigai, a contemporary of Philip II and Alexander the Great, is preserved in sufficiently good condition for us to identify several of its features. Its scabbard, considerable traces of which remain, was of wood, the upper part decorated with ivory. Particularly elaborate is the peculiar bird-shaped hilt, which is one of the distinctive features of these weapons. Its iron core, in fact the continuation of the blade, is clad on both sides with wood and reinforced with additional iron strips, then bound completely with textile, perhaps to ensure a firm grip. These multiple revetments were held together by rivets, two of which are in situ.

In the lower part of the hilt is the hand guard, a small horizontal bar that extends toward the cutting edge of the blade. In contrast to most other swords with a cruciform hilt, which were intended for hand-to-hand combat and have a double guard to protect the hand on both sides, horsemen who struck their opponents with a saber from the height of their mount exposed only the lower part of the hand and hence had only one protective guard for that vulnerable area. The curved beak of the bird also protected the warrior’s hand from behind. It is clear, then, that the decision to use this particular decorative figure was not merely ornamental, but derived from specific functional needs.

It does seem from the above that when/if Alexander took a sword into combat on horseback it would most likely be a kopis.

Personal observation regarding the comments on the bird shaped handle. I have a 17th century etching of an ancient statue of Alexander as Achilles - my biggest purchase ever! – the statue itself seems to have disappeared without a trace. In the etching Alexander is holding by the blade what appears to be a straight sword with the hilt also in the shape of a bird’s head. Methinks then that it might have been a common feature.

By the way, Karen, I think you might have been logged on to the other forum when you posted the link which is why it didn't work for us. I came across what might be the same page via a regular Google search. Is this the page?

Best regards,

karen · Post by **karen** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:47 am

Athena's Owl wrote:]In the mosaic, the Alexander figure has a spear, no?

That's the weapon he's wielding. He's thrusting with a spear in the mosaic from Pompei too.... but when I think about it, the sword he's carrying in that one is straight also, even though he's on horseback. It's sheathed, but you can tell by the style of the hilt. Nice big detail here -- (hope it works!) -- http://www.astro.rug.nl/~weygaert/tim1p ... .web.3.jpg -- in which you can see the grip and guard of the sword very clearly.

Amyntoros, that is indeed the page, but I got to it through a Google image search. I had been logged on previously so maybe I still was? ???

Any possibility of scanning that etching? I'd love to see it.

Warmly,
Karen

karen · Post by **karen** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:11 am

Anyone seen, or have, or know of a shot, of this one -- http://www.topsfieldschools.org/PROCTOR ... aranto.jpg -- at a different angle, so we can see the sword?

amyntoros · Post by **amyntoros** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:10 pm

karen wrote:Any possibility of scanning that etching? I'd love to see it.

Unfortunately not - I bought the print already framed and have never wanted to try and remove it. But you could go to this site and scroll down till you get to the two Alexander prints. The quality of the images on the website is poor, unfortunately. Perrier had a free style and a bold hand so the lines of his etchings are quite dark and strong - very different from his most famous pupil, Charles Le Brun. His prints don’t scan well anyway, especially when the image is reduced, but I scanned an Athena and it gives a much better idea of the artwork than those on the site.

And, no, I didn’t pay the price on the site.

karen wrote:That's the weapon he's wielding. He's thrusting with a spear in the mosaic from Pompei too.... but when I think about it, the sword he's carrying in that one is straight also, even though he's on horseback. It's sheathed, but you can tell by the style of the hilt. Nice big detail here -- (hope it works!) -- http://www.astro.rug.nl/~weygaert/tim1p ... .web.3.jpg -- in which you can see the grip and guard of the sword very clearly.

I’m not convinced that the mosaic necessarily portrays the sword with accuracy. Even though it is based on an earlier painting I still think there may be some artistic license in that they are showing us an Achilles/Alexander parallel. Look at Alexander’s image on the mosaic and then at the portrait of Achilles on the 460-450 BC Red Figure Amphora now in the Vatican Museum. (See below) There are striking similarities, IMO, and it could mean that the artists weren’t all that concerned about portraying a sword that Achilles might also have carried, as opposed to a Macedonian kopis.

Just musing, of course ...

Best regards,

athenas owl · Post by **athenas owl** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:28 pm

amyntoros wrote:
karen wrote:That's the weapon he's wielding. He's thrusting with a spear in the mosaic from Pompei too.... but when I think about it, the sword he's carrying in that one is straight also, even though he's on horseback. It's sheathed, but you can tell by the style of the hilt. Nice big detail here -- (hope it works!) -- http://www.astro.rug.nl/~weygaert/tim1p ... .web.3.jpg -- in which you can see the grip and guard of the sword very clearly.
I’m not convinced that the mosaic necessarily portrays the sword with accuracy. Even though it is based on an earlier painting I still think there may be some artistic license in that they are showing us an Achilles/Alexander parallel. Look at Alexander’s image on the mosaic and then at the portrait of Achilles on the 460-450 BC Red Figure Amphora now in the Vatican Museum. (See below) There are striking similarities, IMO, and it could mean that the artists weren’t all that concerned about portraying a sword that Achilles might also have carried, as opposed to a Macedonian kopis.

Just musing, of course ...

Best regards,

I think you are right...Alexander was supposed to have taken Achilles' armour from Troy, so the artist would have been inspired to portray ATG's cuirass as the one Achilles would wear...just a guess anyway. It may have been a convention of art at that time.