Recreating the Phalanx

[rocktupac]

On September 24th I'll be assisting a professor of ancient history at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, as part of an Independent Study class, in recreating the Macedonian phalanx. Professor Greg Aldrete's students have been learning about ancient Greek style of warfare and are currently up to Alexander and the new style of phalanx. He has approximately 40 students at his disposal and each was assigned to make a hoplon for their demonstration of earlier phalanx warfare. They're also armed with spears (cardboard tubes). I'll also be showing off my linothorax to the students which I recently completed.

I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions to what we could try out. I realize this is a relatively small number of "soldiers" but I'm open to all things. Right now we've got a routine scheduled along with battle cries and marching chants, but I'm just curious what all of you have to add. I know this is a little off subject of what is usually posted here but I figure that it'll further push the topic of phalanx maneuvering. Thanks.

[karen]

Rocktupac, I am a firm believer in the idea that if more Alexander scholars hauled themselves out of their ivory tower offices, got into the fresh air and actually tried out physically, with their own hands, the things they write about (within the bounds of legality and reason, of course), they'd understand them better.

I think Robin Lane Fox, he of the famous cavalry charge as an extra in Oliver Stone's Alexander, would agree. When the extras playing the phalanx figured out a way to step aside so as to avoid scythed chariots, he said words to the effect of, "That must be how they did it!"

So I applaud what this prof is doing.

Here are some other folks with similar ideas (scroll down for pics)

What's in the routine? I kind of want to know what you're already doing before I suggest anything.

Warmly,
Karen

[rocktupac]

This might be helpful: here is the web page http://www.uwgb.edu/aldreteg/hoplite6.html of the professor's attempt in a previous year (from when I went through what was called 'Hoplite Day') In the long pictures on the top, I'm the one on the right hand side with a red Spartan shield with a bold-white lambda. It was one of his first attempts in recreating Greek hoplite warfare. And very fun I might add.

For the Hoplite Day on September 24th, I know he plans on having the students line up in two rows (like in the pictures on the website) and crash into each other. He has an Athenian styled call-and-response war cry worked out. The students also do some walking and turning drills, all while holding their spears in various positions.

For something new this year, and because I'll be assisting him, we'll be able to arrange the students into blocks, or as close to a Macedonian phalanx as we can get. I'm able to bring eight foot long cardboard tubes (the same thing on the inside of a toilet paper roll) and use them for spears. At home I made a sarissa out of them close to 17 feet long. I also had the idea of having the students yell the "Alalalalai" war cry as they march. I'm also going to be filming it and creating a DVD for classroom and personal use.

That's pretty much the entire class period; we only have about an hour. So any kind of suggestion would be appreciated. Thanks Karen.

[Efstathios]

rocktupac hi.

Since we dont know exactly how they yelled the "alalalalaai", i suggest to do it in a manner that is not like indians yelling to the great manitu.

Try to show military discipline. With appropriate orders for the preparation of the march. "Attention", "at ease", "sarissas down", "sarissas up", (or "sarissas on offence""), "phallanx march 1,2 1,2 1,2", e.t.c.

I suspect you will be doing this in English. If however you want to give some essential orders in Greek, just for the realism, ask me. It's not difficult.

And try to get them keeping the lines e.t.c. The things that a phallanx would do.

Good luck!

[Paralus]

I agree. Best to make it realistic as possible.

Perhaps you might persuade 4000 Canadian "barbaroi" to incontinemtly flee before your charge?

Joking.....jokiing....ok, maybe just a little serious.

[karen]

Since we dont know exactly how they yelled the "alalalalaai", i suggest to do it in a manner that is not like indians yelling to the great manitu.

Efstathios:

1) The people to whom you are referring are not Indians, never were Indians, and are no longer referred to by that term in polite company.

2) Manitou (that's the correct spelling) is not a war god, but a creator. Native North Americans never had a war god. They don't and didn't yell to him, but sing.

3) A war cry is a war cry is a war cry. Native North Americans and Makedonians would both have done it with a) maximum volume b) maximum savagery and c) maximum intent to terrify the enemy and hearten themselves and each other.

4) While I don't think you purposely intended to offend anyone, this comment has the tone of thoughtless disparagement of a people based on an assumption of their inferiority. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Karen

[karen]

Perhaps you might persuade 4000 Canadian "barbaroi" to incontinemtly flee before your charge?

Joking.....jokiing....ok, maybe just a little serious.

NO WAY, eh!

We'd just whack ya with our hockey sticks.

But seriously, Rock... I LOVE those pictures. The students look like they're having so much fun!

I have some ideas. From what I have seen there were three main sarissa positions (not counting the "at ease" position with the spear straight upright, butt resting on the ground). Upright but off the ground, levelled, and a roughly 45-degree angle. When the phalanx advanced on an enemy, the first five ranks levelled their spears, the sixth held it at the 45 and the remaining ranks held it upright. So I suggest getting the gang to practice all three, while standing still and marching. (Using cardboard tubes they have NO EXCUSE for not being able to hold the 45 and levelled positions for decent lengths of time.)

In one of the ancient sources, I forget which one, there's a reference to the phalanx advancing with locked arms. I have no idea how they did that, i.e. how they positioned their arms to lock together while holding the spears while having the spears of rear ranks extend past the front ranks, etc. Maybe you guys can figure that out.

With only 40 students you're limited, but I suggest experimenting with deep ranks (say, 4 wide, 10 deep) vs. shallow ranks (10 wide, 4 deep). You could try transitioning from 4 wide 10 deep to 8 wide 5 deep to 20 wide 2 deep... Alexander had his phalanx do this at Issos so as to keep an unbroken front line across the widening plain.

You could split the class in half and have half be a Makedonian phalanx and other half take up those Spartan hoplite "arms" again -- so as to find out the effectiveness of the long spears against the not-so-long spears.

Finally -- though you'd have to do this very carefully for safety reasons -- get someone to replicate a scythed chariot, perhaps using a bicycle, and have the phalanx practice splitting and letting it through down the middle without losing order.

With everything the phalanx does, of course, it should act as much as possible like one single 40-speared creature, with every move co-ordinated and in unison. If the prof wants to exercise some real military discipline, he could tell the students they're going to be graded on their ability to keep cohesion and it will be a significant part of their year's mark...

Good luck and have a blast (I know you will!)

Warmly,
Karen

[Efstathios]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I correct you, you are wrong.

Of course my remark wasnt racist. In my country the native Americans are called indians (Ινδιάνοι), because that's the way Colombus called them while he thought that he was in India. I dont think this is insulting. When we watch a western movie, we say cowboys and indians. E.t.c. The official would be to say native Americans, but i didnt know that the word "indians" is now considered as insulting. It's just a word that was commonly used even after people knew that these people are not Indians, as from India.

How do they call them now?

And furthermore, the manitou e.t.c, was intented to be just a humorous example, an image that we have seen in tv e.t.c., not a realistic depiction. The popular image. Which of course as you said is historically inaccurate. I didnt go through the process of verifying if the native Americans had a war god, i just used a stereotype, which i dont think is insulting.

While I don't think you purposely intended to offend anyone, this comment has the tone of thoughtless disparagement of a people based on an assumption of their inferiority

When did i make such an assumption? The remark of not using the same yells for the Macedonian phallanx is just a technical detail, not a disparagement against anyone. And i used this example because it's easy for someone to think about the native American's yells 200 years ago, when they think the alalalalai of the Macedonians. Which can be just not accurate, since we dont know how the Macedonians were yelling. And, yes, a war cry is a war cry, but it can also have differences at each occassion. From just loud screams, to brutal screams, to thin sounding screams.

Karen, i think you are just being offensive with me, because of what i have been saying about homosexuality in ancient Greece e.t.c. And i have also specificly said to you that my remarks are not aimed at you. You are taking it personally. And you must not. However one of my latest remarks was personal, and i directly reffered to you, when i said that you are being absolute when there are no facts, and that this is wrong.

I think that we need to find a common ground here.

[karen]

Hi Efstathios:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you might not have intended said tone, because English is not your first language, so subtleties of tone escape you.

Let me suggest that you stay away from stereotypes, though, as they are always insulting. Suggest if you're citing a popular media image you say so, e.g. "B-movie Indians" or whatever... that way people know you're referring to the movie stereotypes rather than your own.

Terms I've seen commonly used include Native Americans, Native Canadians, Native North Americans, First Nations people, as well as Anishnabe and other words in their own languages. People may say Indian in Greek but it's pretty much passe in the English-language world.

My bringing this up has nothing to do with the homosexual argument. The personal remark you refer to, I didn't take as particularly personal, as it was not characterizing me as a bad person, only criticizing my position.

The homophobic remarks, however, characterize homosexual people as bad people (e.g: "corrupted to the bone roman senator that may have been a bugger himself") and that group would include me, and thus you're calling me a bad person by inclusion, whether you intend it personally or not. Perhaps you didn't, but the fact is, your words still demean me to all who read. This is why our moderators censure or delete such references from time to time.

I didn't directly answer the said personal remark as I felt that I could end the hijacking of that thread by not answering. (You might recall that at the very beginning you told Marcus you didn't want to ruin his post.) That succeeded, but now you are bringing it up in another thread. This is at least skirting on the edge of trolling. If your next post to me contains anything on the topic that isn't conciliatory, I will not answer it either.

Karen

[sikander]

Greetings,

Instead of thinking of the war cry as a verbal cry, think of it as a pure sound.. the "alalai..." coming from the vibration of the throat muscles as the sound is pushed through the throat, similar to the za'eet. Such cries have been, and are, common to tribal peoples and ancient peoples.

This produces a *loud*, carrying sound that, if you heard it from the throats of hundreds or thousands, would be quite daunting and unnerving...

Regards,
Sikander

[Efstathios]

Karen, sometimes i may not express myself appropriately. The example with Curtius was intented, as to the corruption of the senators, and the orgies, and all that. And not about Curtius being a homosexual by nature, but by corruption. Therefore in my own estimation his writtings are based on his own experiences at the Roman senate. This as i put it here should not be insulting to you. However the word "bugger" was indeed not appropriate, so if you felt that my remark was even unwillingly aiming at you too, i apologise.

I wrote this here and not by pm, so as to make my position clear to everyone, because i dont like even one person to have the wrong idea about me, as for example being a racist e.t.c. which i consider myself not one, by a missunderstanding. The rest is on pm in your inbox. roctupac sorry for the diversion of the post.

[karen]

Thanks Stathis, you are a gentleman.

Warmly,
Karen

[Paralus]

Careful with the compliments: I've met Stathi.

He drinks and smokes....

Ha! He is Greek for the gods' sake!

[rocktupac]

Thank you everyone for your comments, even if some did get a little off topic

It should be a really exciting event. When the professor gets the pictures uploaded on his website I'll have to post a link to them. Then everyone can see my linothorax I made as well. (He wants me to wear it, ha ha)

But thanks again, I can always count on the support and advice from fellow Pothonians!

Scott

[marcus]

Then everyone can see my linothorax I made as well. (He wants me to wear it, ha ha)

That's just starting to sound a bit kinky! Personally, I rather prefer my French Maid's outfit ...

ATB