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robbie wrote:2. Laying mortally wounded Alexander I is said to have commented on how (paraphrasing) his famous nephew waged war against women, while he himself fought men! If that comment was truly made, it was not only totally misplaced but also spiteful. I would love to know how Alexander reacted to it, in case he heard about it.

Marcus wrote:
One thing to remember is the prevailing attitude towards the people of the Persian empire. They were considered to be weak, slavish and effeminate. That is what Alexander of Epirus would have assumed, whereas he had learned that fighting the people of the Italian peninsular wasn't a stroll in the park.

Regarding 'spiteful', it's only as spiteful as Alexander (III)'s comment about the "battle of mice", in reference to Antipater's victory over the Spartans and their allies at Megalopolis. Anyway, what commander wouldn't want to 'big up' his own exploits, while belittling the exploits of others? [/quote]
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robbie wrote: Yes, you are quite right in saying so. But the persians hardly held the greeks in high regard either, so I wouldn't get too hung up on the stone-throwing and hurling of
derogatory viewpoints either way. As for the "fighting quality" of the Italic men... well, everything is relative. I wouldn't get too hung up on their abilities either - as in every other place, you'll find instances there of both sides of the spectrum - I mean, you'll find both good and weak warriors.

robbie wrote: Again, you're quite right in saying so, but at least he didn't chastise any relatives. I don't think that Alexander had that poor a self-confidence that he needed to "big up" his own feats. So much has been written about Alexander, so much sensationalist slander no doubt, that it's made him an easy prey for moralists and armchair-wiseguys (I'm not speaking of you or anyone else here )

Marcus wrote:
But that's irrelevant when one is looking at Alexander of Epirus' supposed quote. As far as he was concerned, the Persians were not a worthy, 'manly' foe, while the Italians were; therefore his comment.

Marcus wrote:
Well, true to an extent, insofar as Alexander probably didn't need to big up his exploits against his human foes. But he would have made as much capital as possible out of his emulation of the Gods and demi-gods, out of the solving of the Gordian Knot, and out of such 'impossible' feats as the capture of Tyre and, later, of Aornus. Perhaps he didn't feel the need to compare himself with other commanders, but I would say there was a lot of bigging up going on!

robbie wrote:

Marcus wrote:
Well, true to an extent, insofar as Alexander probably didn't need to big up his exploits against his human foes. But he would have made as much capital as possible out of his emulation of the Gods and demi-gods, out of the solving of the Gordian Knot, and out of such 'impossible' feats as the capture of Tyre and, later, of Aornus. Perhaps he didn't feel the need to compare himself with other commanders, but I would say there was a lot of bigging up going on!

Yeah, I would probably have to go along with that one. But we have to remember that he also did it out of necessity, to boost the morale of his men, to instill a sense of unshakable destiny, and not just out of sheer ego. Everything that he did, he did with a lot of brain cells (I'm just waiting for someone to insert some snide remark here or something ) embedded.

amyntoros wrote:
No snide remark, I promise, however I feel the need to point out that ego was not something to be looked upon with disdain in ancient times. Self promotion seems to have been the norm and Alexander was a master at this. There was no shame in glorifying one's successes and no benefit in being modest about them. Look at Homer and especially Achilles whom Alexander emulated - the whole of the Iliad resounds with pride in one's achievement!. As far as Alexander's "bigging up" against human foes goes (love that expression) I'd say the histories have quite a few examples, the seemingly gross exaggeration of the number of men in Darius' army being just one of them.

Btw, a quickie to Marcus and the rest of you in England. What IS going on with the weather there? You have New York blizzard conditions and we have 60 degree weather!!!

Best regards,

robbie wrote:I also think he knew where to draw the line. You could only go so far with "bigging up" and he was probably careful, too, so as not to elicit any discord or be held up to ridicule. He walked a fine line, and he knew it, too.

amyntoros wrote:Btw, a quickie to Marcus and the rest of you in England. What IS going on with the weather there? You have New York blizzard conditions and we have 60 degree weather!!!

Marcus wrote:
See Agesilaos' comments about Kleitos the Black. I don't think we can say that Alexander knew where to draw the line at all!

robbie wrote:1. Does anyone know what happened at the battle of Pandosia? I've come across some bits and pieces here, there, and everywhere, but seldom do I find anything but conflicting and contradictory accounts. One source states that Alexander's army was forced to fight in hilly, uneven terrain against the indigenous Italic tribes whereupon he managed to cut his losses and kill the enemy leader, while another source offers a disparate version in which the greek force was overrun by a surprise attack while still encamped under heavy rain forcing Alexander to escape and ultimately leading up to his death. They say it marked the beginning of the Italic maniple fighting system "superiority" to the greek-macedonian phalanx formation. However, let it be said, that Alexander did manage to win a couple of battles against the Italics; Paestum, Heraclea, Terina, Sipontum. What happened at Pandosia, in my view, was due to unfavorable circumstances, terrain, perhaps poor generalship, who knows. Also, the Epirote army wasn't as formidable as Philip's, they didn't have the Shield bearers, and the cavalry (provided that they did have it) was certainly inferior to Alexander's (III).

8.24 Account of the tragic end of Alexander of Epirus
[8.24]The foundation of Alexandria in Egypt is stated to have taken place this year (327 B.C.), and also the assassination of Alexander of Epirus at the hands of a Lucanian refugee, an event which fulfilled the oracular prediction of the Dodonean Jupiter. When he was invited by the Tarentines into Italy, he received a warning to beware of the water of Acheron and the city of Pandosia; for it was there that the limits of his destiny were fixed. This made him cross over into Italy all the sooner, that he might be as far as possible from the city of Pandosia in Epirus and the river Acheron, which flows from Molossis into the Infernal Marshes and finally empties itself into the Thesprotian Gulf. But, as often happens, in trying to avoid his fate he rushed upon it. He won many victories over the nationalities of Southern Italy, inflicting numerous defeats upon the legions of Bruttium and Lucania, capturing the city of Heraclea, a colony of settlers from Tarentum, taking Potentia from the Lucanians, Sipontum from the Apulians, Consentia and Terina from the Bruttii and other cities belonging to the Messapians and Lucanians. He sent three hundred noble families to Epirus to be detained there as hostages. The circumstances under which he met his death were these. He had taken up a permanent position on three hills not far from the city of Pandosia which is close to the frontiers of the Lucanians and Bruttii. From this point he made incursions into every part of the enemy's territory, and on these expeditions he had as a bodyguard some two hundred Lucanian refugees, in whose fidelity he placed confidence, but who, like most of their countrymen, were given to changing their minds as their fortunes changed. Continuous rains had inundated the whole country and prevented the three divisions of the army from mutually supporting each other, the level ground between the hills being impassable. While they were in this condition two out of the three divisions were suddenly attacked in the king's absence and overwhelmed. After annihilating them the enemy invested the third hill, where the king was present in person. The Lucanian refugees managed to communicate with their countrymen, and promised, if a safe return were guaranteed to them, to place the king in their hands alive or dead. Alexander, with a picked body of troops, cut his way, with splendid courage, through the enemy, and meeting the Lucanian general slew him after a hand to hand fight. Then getting together those of his men who were scattered in flight, he rode towards the ruins of a bridge which had been carried away by the floods and came to a river. Whilst his men were fording it with very uncertain footing, a soldier, almost spent by his exertions and his fears, cursed the river for its unlucky name, and said, "Rightly art thou called Acheros!" When these words fell on his ear the king at once recalled to mind the oracular warning, and stopped, doubtful whether to cross or not. Sotimus, one of his personal attendants, asked him why he hesitated at such a critical moment and drew his attention to the suspicious movements of the Lucanian refugees who were evidently meditating treachery. The king looked back and saw them coming on in a compact body; he at once drew his sword and spurred his horse through the middle of the river. He had already reached the shallow water on the other side when one of the refugees some distance away transfixed him with a javelin. He fell from his horse, and his lifeless body with the weapon sticking in it was carried down by the current to that part of the bank where the enemy were stationed. There it was horribly mutilated. After cutting it through the middle they sent one half to Consentia and kept the other to make sport of. Whilst they were pelting it at a distance with darts and stones a solitary woman ventured among the rabble who were showing such incredible brutality and implored them to desist. She told them amid her tears that her husband and children were held prisoners by the enemy and she hoped to ransom them with the king's body however much it might have been disfigured. This put an end to the outrages. What was left of the limbs was cremated at Consentia by the reverential care of this one woman, and the bones were sent back to Metapontum; from there they were carried to Cleopatra, the king's wife, and Olympias, his sister, the latter of whom was the mother, the former the sister of Alexander the Great. I thought it well to give this brief account of the tragic end of Alexander of Epirus, for although Fortune kept him from hostilities with Rome, the wars he waged in Italy entitle him to a place in this history.