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This was something I was thinking about while reading the dialogue between Dr Vasco and Yiannis.
In order to avoid problems and provide a guideline for the type of answers I expect, I provide a few comments/clarification on the meaning of the question:
1. It restricts to the period before Roman control of the Mediterranean basin (so no comments about GÇ£before 1932/after 1932GÇ¥ and the like)
2. I used the term GÇ£GreekGÇ¥ and GÇ£GreeceGÇ¥ because of my inability to find better terms. Actually one of the goals of the question is to know whether ancient GÇ£GreeksGÇ¥ (Athenians, Spartans, Thebans and so on) recognized themselves as just one large nation/state/society or not.
3. The word for the GÇ£GreekGÇ¥ allies used in (my translated-into-Spanish copy of) The Iliad is GÇ£AchaiansGÇ¥. I donGÇÖt know where Achaia is, but if I remember it right, the allies came from several places: Menealaos and Agammemnon were from the Peloponesos (Mecenas, Argos and Sparta come to my mind, but I am not sure of none of them), Odisseos/Ulises was from the island of Ithaca (which I think is near Epirus, but correct me if IGÇÖm wrong) and Achilles was, I read somewhere, a Thessalian (or was Peleus his father?). So it seems there was already an idea of an GÇ£Achaian nationGÇ¥. Is this the case? If so, what happened next?
4. Can GÇ£ancient MacedoniansGÇ¥ (again, excuse my lack of a better term. I am talking about those who lived in the area before the Roman invasion) be considered GÇ£Greeks/AchaiansGÇ¥ simply because they worshipped the same gods or spoke the same language (if they did)? Do we also/instead need similarity of other elements such as political/economic systems or education? How important is genetics? This is a really tricky one, and of course depends on the definitions of, for example, GÇ£languageGÇ¥ and GÇ£dialectGÇ¥. As a benchmark case (though I donGÇÖt know if it is a good one or not) I considered the case of the Roman empire: all peoples there (at least at an administrative level) spoke Latin, though they were certainly not Romans (note: Roman as a "social" or "national" term, not citizen, which is just an administrative/political label). On the other side, Rome started fighting several other GÇ£ancient ItalianGÇ¥ tribes (Lucanians, Brutians, etc), and then moved on until it controled the whole Mediterranean basin. First, those Lucanians and Brutians were certainly not considered Romans; but then, when the empire grew, the descendants of those Lucanians and Brutians were as Roman as someone who was actually b

4. Can GÇ£ancient MacedoniansGÇ¥ (again, excuse my lack of a better term. I am talking about those who lived in the area before the Roman invasion) be considered GÇ£Greeks/AchaiansGÇ¥ simply because they worshipped the same gods or spoke the same language? Do we need similarity of other elements as political/economic systems or education? How important is genetics? This is a really tricky one, and of course depends on the definitions of, for example, GÇ£languageGÇ¥ and GÇ£dialectGÇ¥. As a benchmark case (though I donGÇÖt know if it is a good one or not) I considered the case of the Roman empire: all peoples there (at least at an administrative level) spoke Latin, though they were certainly not Romans. On the other side, Rome started fighting several other GÇ£ ancient ItalianGÇ¥ tribes (Lucanians, Brutians, etc), and then moved on until it controled the whole Mediterranean basin. First, those Lucanians and Brutians were certainly not considered Romans; but then, when the empire grew, the descendants of those Lucanians and Brutians were as Roman as someone who was actually born and grew in Rome (in fact, several Roman emperors were born far away from Rome). Could this GÇ£evolutionaryGÇ¥ theory apply also to the GÇ£ancient Macedonians were/werenGÇÖt ancient GreeksGÇ¥ issue?
5. Related to the previous point, what was the status of children born from one GÇ£GreekGÇ¥ and one GÇ£barbarianGÇ¥ parent? Was he/she Greek, barbarian or something in between? I think Xenophon was half Persian and half GÇ£GreekGÇ¥. Was his case special because he wrote for Greeks?
I would appreciate you distinguish in your answers the part related to the general question (what did GÇ£being GreekGÇ¥ mean in GÇ£Ancient GreeceGÇ¥? Points 1-3) and the related one (based on the previous answer, were GÇ£ancient MacedoniansGÇ¥ GÇ£(ancient) GreeksGÇ¥? Points 1,4-5).
Thank you very much for your comments
Best wishes,Alejandro

Dear friends/ Alejandro,I am delighted of the begining of new way of aproach towards the issue adressed in this forum...!...... At this stage I am standing behind my reply's in previous topic re:Illyrians by Linda, which are no "emotional" ones, but realistic, saying only that Alexader and Makedonia were not just what was/is discussed until now, but they were Europe, Asia, Africa, whole World! So more professional and respectfull aproach, like we/you are paving here, is what people need without bouderies in hearts, minds and souls. This planet belongs to everyone, no one has title on planet and mankind in general, so it is time for people to say somthing about themselfs, not other to speak on their behalf, (native people). Building world "as one culture" without recognition for native people and their cultural heritagge is/was the main mistake until now. Alexander was doing opposite, that was his aim- goal, so now again it is time for people to find their own idnetity and then, only then with mutual recognition to each other this world will be better place for all, and is comming. Here, nobody is agains no one, but is agains oppression to give othrs word to speak for themselfs. .. This is good begining and is future of this forum and the world, because as I said, Makedonia and Alexander were World once, giving individual, cultural, religious... freedom to all, one and the only way...With respect
The Light 7000

I respect V.'s noble feeling about the brotherhood of Man. However, a more pragmatic approach suggests that we define what is an ethnos, or nation.Herodotus defines a nation as:
omaimon, omoglosson, omothriskon, omotroponMeaning: of the same blood, same tongue, same religion, same customs.Schematically, Hellenes, which is the more appropariate term, are a large tree with many branches. I hope I can upload a diagram someday for you to see. Nevertheless, at the roots of the tree are the Protohellenes, the Pelasgoi, Minyans, Locrians, Lykians, Dryops, Kares, Lydians etc...These are the people that Greek history begins with, as far back as 10,000 b.c.After them are the first branches of Greeks:Ionians, Macedonians, Arcadians.From the Ionians come the Milesians, Efessians, and others.From the Macedonians come the Dorians, Thessalians etc. (Not the other way around-The Dorians were not some tribe that came from the North and settled)From the Arcadians came the Aeolians, Achaians, Cretans, Cypriots, etc..Thebans, Spartans, Athenians, etc all trace their roots back to bigger and bigger branches, and they are all part of the same tree. Yes they did feel they were all Greeks. It is the geography and its subsequent influence on the Greek's character that forced a political system with a lot of autonomous entitites (city-states). Simply put, the hellenic world was to rough to rule compared to say the plains of Asia. Isocrate's definition of a Greek is that of someone who has received a Greek paideia-education. There are numerous texts which mention Hellas as entity way before the classics, the Persian wars or anything of the kind "united" the Hellenes. I lack the time to give you direct quotes but if you dig deeper you will discover exactly what I describe above.I hope this helps you

Dear Friend,Thanks for your info., even without it I was aware of somthing simular. Your reply is far more objective than I expected, without too much emotions, and that is good. Using term Hellen is far more appropriate than Greek, speaking in the context of the topic. However, we need to hear other part of the story, eg. Vlachs, Illiryans, Makedonians, etc., in simular way, with citing their own, or neutral scolars, to get to some point for mutual understunding without being too emotional. This is good start, and that is the way should be, but, re: your entry, I must point this ,(there are few many things, but let be short and very precise in explanation why we need more info. from various sources and native people, analizing their traditions/ cultural identity, which are not changed, and as you are saying, and we all know, are main characteristic of one's identity), Pelasgi/Pelagonesi, (if you mean as I), Pelagons, are one of most ancient Makedonian tribes and only that name-Pelaginia, Pelagonesi, are the only name/term in the world (to my knowledge), that is same - unchanged until today, like Makedonia. ..... I would like just to ramind you, that not only Hellens and today Greeks, had their hystori, and you should be proud of it, but the others have too, and I think everyone deserve right to speak for himself, and than and only than, with respect and recognition, we can enter the new consciousness making world better place for all...! With respect -The Light 7000

V., why did you assume my reply would be emotional? I respect any people's history, and their right to be proud of it. However, I am very serious when it comes to the truth. I will respect and seriously consider a position contrary to my own as long as it is not malintentioned. When I am presented with a deliberate twist of the facts I will reject them right away. In our case, it is a fact that the people residing today in FYROM have no relation whatsoever to Ancient Greece and Ancient Macedonia, it is a fact that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek (by any definition you'd like), and again, I don't question myself, my facts or the methodology I used to arrive at those facts because I know that there is an agenda, and hence, a reason to lie on your part. If you are convinced and believe all this than I am sorry to say that your approach is less than scientific. Nothing agaist you V, you seem like a kind and courteous fellow, but history is history, and the facts can't be altered. To me, an American seriously studying the Classics has more right to claim anything Ancient Greek as his own, than any Slav that lives in area that was part of Ancient Macedonia.

Hi,
I think the following sites will be helpful:
http://www.macedon.org/anmacs/quotable_quotes.htm
http://faq.macedonia.org/history/ancien ... /from.html
Regards

This pittyful tactic of replying with a URL-safehouse:1. Shows that any supporter of the there publicized ideas, cannot form an opinion for himself either because he lacks the capacity, the methodology or the interest to do so.2. Displays a non-willingess to actively participate in a discussion either because the person doesn't know enough about the subject to debate, or hasn;t been taught that we better arrive at the truth through the dialectic approach. With both cases, is not productive and counter to the purpose that I suppose this forum was founded on. To expand our knowledge on Alexander the Great.
"Claim you neighboors' house and maybe you'll end up with his backyard" has no place here. My reccomendations to you "S" are:1. Study the Classics. It will really change the way to which you receive propaganda. You will obtain a critical eye, and guide your search for the truth through the most ethical means. After that:2. Study History. Look at all sides and arrive at your own conclusions. Then you will be surer of yourself and be a more productive member of society.
Cheers,Alex

Dear Perseus,
De Ja Vu..., everything that is not written by "Greek" taste is rubish, doesn't matter from whom and from where is comming, even it is directly from GOD HIMSELF, it would be nonsense for some like Perseus, some not everyone,( becouse there are more and more Greeks who are asking them selfs what kind a language spoke their grandparents- answer Makedonian, Vlachs, Albanian, maybe and maybe greek/Ponthos...,so there is shift of oppinion and mainly from accademicians!), because those Hellens who are from Pelopones, or islands, they are recognizing them selfs as hellens not makedonians, and have respect to Makedonians and Vlachs, ...Now,in this case, more objectivly, because is not comming from me, (like before in uour statment re:Spanish Zeus),... after all, you are still saying that you are not too emotional in front of whole forum! Well my dear friend something is still missing but is going better, so if you are saying you are serious so be serius and start listening others, have open mind and more respect for others, just a bit of that human respect!All the best- The Light 7000

Hmmm....sounds like a revolution brewing in Greece there buddy.I respect any opinion that is substantiated, researched and not malintentioned. Please be so kind as to quote the parts of my post you found "emotional".This (history) is a serious subject you've stumbled on to, and it is not to be treated like the hobby of some young nationalist who just has a little too much teenage angst.Like it or not, what I've learned is to base my opinion on facts and sound reason, not hocus-pocus abra-katabra.I do not have the time to take that URL apart and bit by bit prove to you just how ridiculous it is. Any educated reader will see that for himeslf so there really is no need. It's not even good propaganda. I really hope this is not what happens every time some poster wants a good discussion or a question answered. I really like the oppurtunity to communicate through this forum and would hate to see posts like that. Again, I LOVE a good debate, but with all the parameters that make it a true debate and not some nationalistic protest.

Greetings,
Just to clarify, this "S" is not me . Not sure who it is, but I *hope* they are not trying to create the impression that I posted these URLS. I will assume the best. By the way, just found some interesting texts that address a similar issue; if they come up with anything new I will post the info.
Regards,
Sikander

Dear "Perseus",
...I do not know who is contacting who here and what is all about, but since you are using term "amotinal", I am obligated to express and explain my self WHY I am saying that!First of all my firend you are overreacting on each and every issue if is contrary to your belief re: Greece, even is very well documented that there is absolutly no original/official source in the world that is saying somthing about Greece before 1828/32, as a state, kingdom etc.! (Here we are not discussing how and why/by whom Greece was founded, and by whom was rulled until approx. 30 y.ago!)...Secondly, you are overreacting where there is some official sourece in "favour" of Makedonia, even know that Alexander was King of Makedonia not Greece or Hellas...!Thtirdly, you are overreacting and using/misusing term "nationalist", for everyone who is with different view than yours, standing firm by your beliefs, not proven or allready dissaproven facts! So the big question here is WHO IS NATIOANLIST, the person who is expresing views with respect to all, or YOU WHO do not want to hear anything that is not by your "meassure" and your own belief, "throwing" on person anything with no basic human respect for his individual, even, oppinion!!!...Now, let me say this; according to yours entry and some words like "methodology", one can assume that you are professional person. On the other hand your behaviour are telling us opposite. Why!? Again, in the context of this, if you are researching somthing, using some kind of methodology, you should know, tha before going in some field researcher must know what is going on in that particular field localy and internationally. To seek some undiscovered areas for search, otherwise he/she will end up researchiong and proving what was alredy proved! Now, becouse you are talking history, in your search you must search for cuurent events, tell tell stories by peoples involved in particular region, search for litriture and than go to plan your acctivities. Apparently what you are talking about, if you are doing research in particular field, you have missed some practical steps here, so all your research after a while could be nothing! Why and how! Sympli becouse you are not recognising any of ethnic groups living in Aegean Makedonia but only Greeks, and you know that Greece is some kind of federation between Aegean makedonia and Hellas, Sth. of Mt. Olymp. You will say is not true, yes for you, but not for hundreds of thousend

cont-
Why and how! Sympli becouse you are not recognising any of ethnic groups living in Aegean Makedonia but only Greeks, and you know that Greece is some kind of federation between Aegean makedonia and Hellas, Sth. of Mt. Olymp. You will say is not true, yes for you, but not for hundreds of thousends Makedonians expeled from their homes after Balkan Wars when makedonia was devided, and spetially after WWII, i.e. Greek Civil War, when thousands families and children were expeled from their homelands. Again you will say No, but what about fact that your /Greek Government are lifting slowlly blokade for those makedonians who are changed their names and places of birth in their passaports, from Makedonians to Greeks, and why EU is pressing Greece to give more rights to those people, and why, if there are not Makedonians, Grek Government is in Court for abusing basic human rights to Makedonians! So all this is telling us that there are other people in Greece than hellens who are looking for rights and their identity-Makedonian, Vlachs, Turks...! It is interesting to note that according to this, greece is only state in EU and the world that is not recognising other nationalities, and in that effort now, instead of recognision of nationalities, they are talking of those with less spoken languges in Greece! Apsurd! But even than there is no basic right and recognition! ... There are more to say, but is like de ja vu and bit borring, in 21 century to talk about this! The latest news are that Athens is the only city in EU without mosque, and just recently the application for building the mosque for Muslims there, was rejected on the ground that it will against Greek pride !? What about other one pride! Later apparently there were few bobs in Pasok offices and Nea Demokratia Provocation or...!? GǪ.There is more to say but let finish this here. Even I was not willing to write this, you are making so hard that are forcing people to say the truth straight, very very straight, and that is painfull so your reactin is nationalistic one, and you are accusing other side and is like never ending story. You are pretending to be great Greek like those from Yugoslavia, now there is no Yugoslavia, and what about families and friends there, what about sheared moments of happiness between them, what about emotions between mixed marriges, friendship, businessesGǪ., what about them my friendGǪ That is why is no good to be extremists, but be meek and lsten with respect because

. You are pretending to be great Greek like those from Yugoslavia, now there is no Yugoslavia, and what about families and friends there, what about sheared moments of happiness between them, what about emotions between mixed marriges, friendship, businessesGǪ., what about them my friendGǪ That is why is no good to be extremists, but be meek and lsten with respect because angriness is source of angriness, hate of hate, and this is some kind of act of evil imprinting in hearts and souls of peoples for life! No no good. Opposite is respect, compassion, friendship, love, and they are source of same. In the middle are democratic dialogue with forgivness, you should do that and practice so you can plant good things around, and they are for everGǪ!This above is to make you bit more aware of something more human, andin the same time to show you your mistakes in your GǣmethodologyGǥ so you can be more professional and more humanGǪ.! With kind regards The light 7000

Dear Dr. Vasko,I would be more than willing to enter a debate with proof-counterproof at its nucleus, a method your doctorship should be used to by now, but I am not willing to enter a debate that just questions my "respect for human beings", "world love" "open mind to any opinion heard" no matter how absurd etc.BTW, I believe that one of the 3 no-no's in this forum is exactly what was brought up with those propagandist URLs. I am sorry but I haven't the energy to continue in this thread.