ancient macedonia

[stavros]

what was ancient macedonia if it wasnt a city state of ancient greece. tell me who they were??from my understanding, they worshiped greek gods, spoke ancient greek, had greek architecture and greek inscriptions on everthing they touched, built cities with greek architects, spread hellenic civilization and culture to the rest of the known world, had coins with greek writing on them, even competed in the ancient greek olympic games. as simplistic as this post is. what makes people believe they were not greek? were they illyrians? or do you consider them ancestors of today's fyrom? are they desendants of another race in the region at the time that were greek in every way, but were NOT if that makes sense. they liked to use the contemporary language, architecture, gods, etc..how do the macedonians differ from the greeks who inhabited place like Cyrene in Lybia 200 years before alexander and places like Southern Italy (sicily). were these cities not apart of the ancient greek world. in other words, they were greek in every way but in actual fact, were some other race who did everything as the greeks did, like architecture, language, pottery etc.. etc.. but were not greek. if you care to answer. cheersstavros

[marcus]

Very briefly...Your very first sentence is, in itself, very revealing. Macedonia was not a city state, and therefore was automatically very different from the states of Greece. It was also a monarchy, which was total anathema to the Greeks.Actually, I think this is one of the key things about the difference between the 'Greeks' and the 'Macedonians' (as the *Greeks* saw it at the time, just for clarification) - to them, gene-dependent ethnicity was hardly the issue, but the attitudes, customs, social conventions, etc. were very much so. After all, consider that, in order to put forward a claim to be 'Greek', Macedonian kings patronised the arts, had themselves accepted as participants in the Olympic Games, and so on - so it was all about acceptance culturally. And culture is a totally different thing from ethnicity.All the bestMarcus

[Dimetrios Poliorketes]

was not a city state, and therefore was automatically very different from the states of Greece Yes it was very different from the City States of Southern Greece in terms of political organization which itself does not determine ethnicity.And Southern Greek city states were also very different from one another as night and day.One was a Feudal Oligarchy with 2 kings and a militaristic state that imposed its will on surrounding populations and was despised by neighbooring states.The later was a democracy engaged in a commercial empire with colonies all over the agean and black sea.Northern Greek states like Macedonia and Epirus and to a lesser extent Thessally had a old Homeric model that was out dated in Southern Greece following the Mycenean period.This does not change the fact that northern Greek states were Greek in language religion beliefs ect.If anything the oppositte is true.They were closer related to the original stock.Both Mycenean and Dorian invaders had their origins in northern Greece and imposed the Greek language on a pre Greek speaking neolithic mediteranean non indo european people in the south.The geneology of the Greek race took place in north central Greece Thessally near Olympus not Southern Greece with Decaulion being the Father of all Greeks and Makedon (ancestor of the Macedonians)and Magnes (ancestor of the Thessalians) being oppsring and brothers.Of course it is also consistent with Thessally being next to Macedonia .It is also true that legendary Achilles came from Thessally and Alexander considered him a symbolic ancestor. It was the Thessalians who outside of the native Macedonians were the most influential in terms of military role in Alexanders Army with the famous Thessallian cavalry and were very loyal. Macedonians Epiroties and Thessalians belong to the northern Greek family.

[Dimitrios Poliorketes]

It sould also be noted that Herodotus stated that the Makedon were the original tribe that the Dorians emerged from.He associated the Dorians a branch of the Makedon ethos with the Hellenic name.In addition Herodotus mentions the Athenians were NOT originally Greek but Pelasgians who he stated were never a powerful people.The Athenians were therefore absorbed into the Hellenic family.Thus in the account of Herodutus the Macedonians were more Greek then the Athenians.During the time of Herodotus Athens was the most powerful state so Herodotus would have no motive to appease Macedonians and anger Athenians.Herodotus himself was a Dorian Greek so he would be quite familiar with the Doric diolect and customs.

Of course there are always potential errors in accounts.However ,it is agreed upon by virtually all historians that Indoeuropean Greeks entered the Hellenic penisula from the north.Hammond points out the following -That the 1st remains that show similartity to Mycenae -The first Greek civilization agreed upon by all scholars-appear in Epirus Macedonia and north Thessally about 300 yrs earlier.That Mt Olympus in Macedonia represents
a point of origin for ealy Greek peoples before some of them gradually began to move south begining with the acheans and ending with the Dorian invasions is supported by Archeology. Thus Hammond points out though some errors may be found in Herodotus description archeology supports earliest Greek origins in the area of Olympus.And as Hammond points out it is also consistent with Hesoids point of origin of the Greek family in Thessally near Olympus and Ossa. The followoing account can be found in Nicholas Hammond's book the Greeks where he discusses early origins.

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This was deleted a few days ago.
It is more relevant today.I feel that this site is contributing to the discrimination of Macedonians by stifling debate and as such promotes the current discriminating, degrading, usurping, historical flip floping status of Greeks.
Such is their desperation and delusions that until recently, they (the 1829 Grks) discouraged even the use of the word Macedonians (and it's language), and are now fraudulently trying to Greekify the Macedonia with every descriminatory method. The scholars and historians are correct in their distinctions and separation of Macedonians and Greeks. The evidence is abundant, there is no debate, just continual discrimination by some.It is a criminal to pander to those who discriminate. Do not be an accomplice to discrimination by siding with the discriminatory status quo of Greeks.The Managers of Greece are no different to the regimes in Iraq, ie because of actions towards it's citizens (past and present). Therefore it too needs urgent attention.

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Ma-+ce-+don Pronunciation Key (ms-dn, -dn) also Ma-+ce-+do-+nia (ms-dn-, -dny)
An ancient kingdom of northern Greece originally occupying territory north of Thessaly and northwest of the Aegean Sea. It was the center of a powerful empire under Philip II and his son Alexander the Great and contributed significantly to the spread of Hellenistic civilization. It became the first Roman province in 146 B.C.
Source: The American Heritage-« Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright -¬ 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Mac-+e-+do-+ni-+a Pronunciation Key (ms-dn-, -dny)
1. A region of southeast Europe on the Balkan Peninsula roughly coextensive with ancient Macedon and including parts of modern-day Greece, Bulgaria, and the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. After the fall of the Alexandrian empire, it was held by Romans, Byzantines, Bulgars, Serbs, and Turks. The present division was largely determined after the Second Balkan War (1913).
2. Officially The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. A country of the central Balkan Peninsula. It was a constituent republic of the former Yugoslavia until it declared its independence in 1991. Skopje is the capital and the largest city. Population: 2,142,000.
3. See Macedon.
Source: The American Heritage-« Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright -¬ 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. macedonia
n : the ancient kingdom of Phillip II and Alexander the Great in the southeastern Balkans that is now divided among Greece and Bulgaria and the former Yugoslavia [syn: Macedon, Macedonia]
Source: WordNet -« 1.6, -¬ 1997 Princeton University macedonia in New Testament times, was a Roman province lying north of Greece. It was governed by a propraetor with the title of proconsul. Paul was summoned by the vision of the "man of Macedonia" to preach the gospel there (Acts 16:9). Frequent allusion is made to this event (18:5; 19:21; Rom. 15:26; 2 Cor. 1:16; 11:9; Phil. 4:15). The history of Paul's first journey through Macedonia is given in detail in Acts 16:10-17:15. At the close of this journey he returned from Corinth to Syria. He again passed through this country (20:1-6), although the details of the route are not given. After many years he probably visited it for a third time (Phil. 2:24; 1 Tim. 1:3). The first convert made by Paul in Europe was (Acts 16:13-1

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The first convert made by Paul in Europe was (Acts 16:13-15) Lydia (q.v.), a "seller of purple," residing in Philippi, the chief city of the eastern division of Macedonia.
Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary macedonia, burning; adoration
Source: Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary One entry found for Macedonia.
Main Entry: Mac-+e-+do-+nia
Pronunciation: "ma-s&-'dO-nE-&, -ny&
Usage: geographical name
1 region S Europe in Balkan Peninsula in NE Greece, the former Yugoslav section of Macedonia, & SW Bulgaria including territory of ancient kingdom of Macedonia (or Mac.e.don /'ma-s&-d&n, -"d+ñn/ capital Pella)
2 country S central Balkan Peninsula; a federated republic of Yugoslavia 1946-92 capital Skopje area 9928 square miles (25,714 square kilometers), population 2,063,000
-¬ 2002 by Merriam-Webster, IncorporatedMacedonia
Syllables: Mac-e-do-ni-a
Part of Speech noun
Pronunciation mae sih do ni E
mae sih don yE
Definition 1. since 1992, a Balkan republic bordering Albania and Greece; formerly part of Yugoslavia.

Derived Forms Macedonian, [adj.], n.
-¬2000
Wordsmyth CollaboratoryDefinition
1. Macedonia [n.] 1. City in Iowa (USA), population 262; zip code 51549. , 2. City in Ohio (USA), population 7509; zip code 44056. , 3. Village in Illinois (USA), population 58; zip code 62860.
2. Macedonian [n.] 1. A native or inhabitant of Macedon. , 2. The Slavic language of modern Macedonia.
3. Macedonian [adj.] Of or relating to Macedonia or its inhabitants; "Macedonian hills."
http://ultralingua.net/results.html?loo ... iaOverview of noun macedonia
The noun macedonia has 2 senses (no senses from tagged texts)
1. Macedonia -- (landlocked republic on the Balkan Peninsula; achieved independence from Yugoslavia in 1991)
2. Macedon, Macedonia, Makedonija -- (the ancient kingdom of Philip II and Alexander the Great in the southeastern Balkans that is now divided among modern Macedonia and Greece and Bulgaria) Synonyms/Hypernyms (Ordered by Frequency) of noun macedonia
2 senses of macedonia
Sense 1
Macedonia -- (landlocked republic on the Balkan Peninsula; achieved independence from Yugoslavia in 1991)
Balkan country, Balkan nation, Balkans, Balkan state -- (a country on the Balkan Peninsula)
Sense 2
Macedon, Macedonia, Makedonija -- (the ancient kingdom of Philip II and Alexander the Great in the southeastern Balkans that is now divided amon

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Overview of noun macedonia
The noun macedonia has 2 senses (no senses from tagged texts)
1. Macedonia -- (landlocked republic on the Balkan Peninsula; achieved independence from Yugoslavia in 1991)
2. Macedon, Macedonia, Makedonija -- (the ancient kingdom of Philip II and Alexander the Great in the southeastern Balkans that is now divided among modern Macedonia and Greece and Bulgaria) Synonyms/Hypernyms (Ordered by Frequency) of noun macedonia
2 senses of macedonia
Sense 1
Macedonia -- (landlocked republic on the Balkan Peninsula; achieved independence from Yugoslavia in 1991)
Balkan country, Balkan nation, Balkans, Balkan state -- (a country on the Balkan Peninsula)
Sense 2
Macedon, Macedonia, Makedonija -- (the ancient kingdom of Philip II and Alexander the Great in the southeastern Balkans that is now divided among modern Macedonia and Greece and Bulgaria)
geographical area, geographic area, geographical region, geographic region -- (a demarcated area of the Earth) Part Holonyms of noun macedonia
2 senses of macedonia
Sense 1
Macedonia -- (landlocked republic on the Balkan Peninsula; achieved independence from Yugoslavia in 1991) PART OF: Balkan Peninsula, Balkans -- (a large peninsula in southeastern Europe containing the Balkan Mountain Range)
Sense 2
Macedon, Macedonia, Makedonija -- (the ancient kingdom of Philip II and Alexander the Great in the southeastern Balkans that is now divided among modern Macedonia and Greece and Bulgaria) PART OF: Balkan Peninsula, Balkans -- (a large peninsula in southeastern Europe containing the Balkan Mountain Range)Member Meronyms of noun macedonia
1 of 2 senses of macedonia
Sense 2
Macedon, Macedonia, Makedonija -- (the ancient kingdom of Philip II and Alexander the Great in the southeastern Balkans that is now divided among modern Macedonia and Greece and Bulgaria)
HAS MEMBER: Macedonian -- (a native or inhabitant of Macedon) Part Meronyms of noun macedonia
2 senses of macedonia
Sense 1
Macedonia -- (landlocked republic on the Balkan Peninsula; achieved independence from Yugoslavia in 1991)
HAS PART: Philippi, battle of Philippi -- (Octavian and Mark Antony defeated Brutus and Cassius in 42 BC)
HAS PART: Skopje, Skoplje, Uskub -- (capital of modern Macedonia)
Sense 2
Macedon, Macedonia, Makedonija -- (the ancient kingdom of Philip II and Alexander the Great in the southeastern Balkans that is now divided among modern Macedonia and Greece and Bulgaria)
HAS P

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2 senses of macedonia
Sense 1
Macedonia -- (landlocked republic on the Balkan Peninsula; achieved independence from Yugoslavia in 1991) PART OF: Balkan Peninsula, Balkans -- (a large peninsula in southeastern Europe containing the Balkan Mountain Range) PART OF: Europe -- (the 2nd smallest continent (actually a vast peninsula of Eurasia); the British use `Europe' to refer to all of the continent except the British Isles) PART OF: Eurasia -- (the land mass formed by the continents of Europe and Asia) PART OF: eastern hemisphere, orient -- (the hemisphere that includes Eurasia and Africa and Australia) PART OF: northern hemisphere -- (the hemisphere north of the equator)
Sense 2
Macedon, Macedonia, Makedonija -- (the ancient kingdom of Philip II and Alexander the Great in the southeastern Balkans that is now divided among modern Macedonia and Greece and Bulgaria) PART OF: Balkan Peninsula, Balkans -- (a large peninsula in southeastern Europe containing the Balkan Mountain Range) PART OF: Europe -- (the 2nd smallest continent (actually a vast peninsula of Eurasia); the British use `Europe' to refer to all of the continent except the British Isles) PART OF: Eurasia -- (the land mass formed by the continents of Europe and Asia) PART OF: eastern hemisphere, orient -- (the hemisphere that includes Eurasia and Africa and Australia) PART OF: northern hemisphere -- (the hemisphere north of the equator)
End of WordNet output for macedonia.

[Polyxena]

I absolutely support Marcus' brief summary about the differences between the ancient Macedonians and the Greeks: they had different ethnicity (the genetics is totally different thing from the mythology), different attitudes, different customs and rituals, different social conventions, different types of marriages..... etc.So, the Argive context of the Argead royal house is absolutely mythic (not ethnological one ... so let us not mix this again) and emerged in the Vth century as an invention of the Macedonian kings themselves, intended in part to give credence and have them accepted culturally. So, that was only a fifth-century propaganda of the Macedonian kings and by accepting their propaganda is not enought to ascribe Hellenic ancestry to the Macedonians for ones own reasons. Their adoption of some aspects of Hellenism isn't more important that the genetic structure of the Macedonian population in general. That was only a necessity of the Macedonian kings (starting from Alexander I...) to impress the Greek world and to be accepted as equal and not as "barbarians" (there are numerous examples of Greek contempt for the Macedonians as barbarians). ... but, that was never an attemt to show that they were one of the Greeks tribes, because they were not. And, at the end, the same Greeks accepted many mythological elements from many different ancient cultures and countries, but nobody judge them for that .... why we should judge the ancient Macedonians now or deny their existence? Regards, Poliksena

[Dimitrios Poliorketes]

No one is denying their extistence.Since I am of part Macedonian heritage the last thing I would want to do is deny their existence.The Macedonians spoke a dialect that was very similar to the old Homeric dialect ,worshiped Greek Gods considered themselves decendent from Greek heros ect.The problem with your stating that they became Hellanized in the 5th century BC is it is inconsistent with accounts from Hesoiod who in the 8th century BC considered them part of the Greek family.Macedonia at that time was a insignificant state in the Greek world.He would have no motive to lie to claim any so called glory.The inscriptions at Pella and Vergina dating back to the early 5th century BC are written in Greek .I suggest you vist those archeological sites .There political insitution reflected a Homeric Mycenean state which was outdated in the Greek City states of the south.A distict dialect similar to the Doric dialect and closer to the Homeric Greek dialect then the Attic dialect.What they adopted were aspects of the Attic dialect and of course the patronage of Athenian culture.The fact that they had a distict Greek dialect proves then did not need a external force to become Hellenized.A percentage of modern historians agree with this position -Hammond,Errington,Robin Lane ,Wilken ect.I suggest you read chapter 2 in Wilkens book since he goes into the detail showing how it was older Homertic institutions once common in Southern Greece that became extict with the City state.Even Peter Green ( not a friend of the Greek position)points out the strong Mycenean Homeric parrells .It should be noted that finding at Virgina since its excavation have proven the Doric Greek origin.Some historians who were unsure of their origins have changed their opinion following the evidence from Vergina that is clearly identified with Greek both in language and symbols and religion.
As for the argive dynasty from Agos .No one can proof or dissprove it was a myth.Even Borza says he is unsure.But the key factor is the archeology and accounts of pre Phillip era historians that did clearly place macedonians in the Greek family. In addition the so called Southern states of Greece were also distict.Sparta was a militeristic oligarchy while Athens was a Naval Commericial aristocratic democracy.Greek states all had differing institutions.What defines Greekness was language religion beliefs not political institutions. As for ethno genetic stock the opposite is true.Greek speaking

[Dimitrios Poliorketes]

scholars and historians are correct in their distinctions and separation of Macedonians and Greeks Very inaccurate statement
A large percentage of Historians such as Nicholas Hammond,Robin Lane,Errington ,Ulrich Wilken and many othersspecificly state Macedonians were Doric Greeks with Homeric institution like all northern Greek states such as Epirus and to some extent Thessally.According to Neitzche -Alexander represent the most perfect symbolic figure of the Greeks .But I guess Neitzche was not a Scholar The ruins at Virigina of course tell the story.The liguistic incspritions and symbolic figures names of both Kings Aristocrats and common folks are clearly Greek. Archeology does not lie. Bringing up modern Greek Balkan politics is not the topic of the board to my understanding.However,it is clear that in modern times no group in the Balkans is innocent of having blood on there hands including Turks,Greeks,Bulgarians,Serbs ect.To beleive other wise is naive.Hopefully the Balkans will settle some of the old issues and progress into the future. The leader of FYROM have stated in there words that they have no relation to the ancient northern
Greek world of Phillip and Alexander.Even the leaders of modern FYROM know the truth.And Greece is the only neighbooring country that does not claim their lands.

[Polyxena]

You wrote: "....The inscriptions at Pella and Vergina dating back to the early 5th century BC are written in Greek ....":-) I'm surprised you've mentioned this as a proof!? So, according your "rule" we are all Americans because we use american/english language, starting from yourself.Regards, Poliksena

[Dimitrios Poliorketes]

according your "rule" we are all Americans because we use american/english language, starting from yourself. English is spoken in USA because the founding Fathers were indeed British and colonized north America.The roots of the United States are ANGLO SAXON.The invader or the colonizer imposes their language not the other way around.Are the origins of the United States prior to independence British? Of course !!! We were a Colony of Britan before declaring independence.Despite political correctness it is no doubt that the origins of our nation are an off shoot of British civilization.And the American founding Fathers spoke English and had surnames which reflect British nationality and ancestry like Washington,Jefferson,Monroe,Franklin.Since Macedonians were not conquered nor colonized by Southern Greek states no language was imposed on them since they had there own distict Greek dialect and their names are clearly Greek like Karanos,Alexandros,Phillipus,Dimitrios and reflect Greek nationality.Names in the ancient world clearly reflected origins as did religious practices which in Macedonia were distictly Homeric Greek.

[Polyxena]

Obviously you missunderstood my meaning of "WE": I meant about all the members of this forum...