Andrew Felando?

[jasonxx]

Andrew Hail.

I wonder with your expertise on horses. Your opinion would pass light on maybe how tall Alexander may have been. Judging from Maybe the Mosaic and other ancient depictions of him with his horse.

We cant really dwell on the big black magnificent horse used by Oliver Stone.
What I have read is that the Ancient Western horses were really small not a lot larger than poneys.Your expertise here is excellent. Going on the basis that these horses were indeed small. Then in relation with Alexander Sitting on the horse etc we maybe braw a conclusion that Alexander was relatively Average in height

Maybe to think Alexander was a six footer and Macedonians were also. All we need is Blonde Hair and Blue eyes for the First Arian Race.

Furthermore we know from the sources Alexander hated the body builders and profesional athletes. And would only compete in the Olympics against kings. I doubt Macedonians spent time with dumb bells etc. the every day marching and fighting was workout enough.

Kenny

[dean]

Hi Kenny,

just got about 3.5 seconds to spare(busy day andyou know how it goes) but wanted to ask you whereyou saw the following-

Furthermore we know from the sources Alexander hated the body builders and profesional athletes.

Cheers matey!!!!

Dean

[jasonxx]

I cant remember which book. Marcus will know where it was written something like that. Maybe I got it wrong but I read it somewhere.

Kenny

[Efstathios]

Alexander was an athletic guy himself.I dont believe that you are actually considering these myths around Alexander to be true.

Hated bodybuilders? There were no bodybuilders back then.Whoever said that must have been drunk or something.

[marcus]

I cant remember which book. Marcus will know where it was written something like that. Maybe I got it wrong but I read it somewhere.

Kenny

Blimey! Well, there is something about him not liking "professional athletes" or something like that, but I can't remember off the top of my head. I shall try to find it, but might not have a chance to look for it this evening.

(To be fair, Efstathios, I did rather assume that Kenny was using "body builders" in a rather loose sense of the word. Of course there were none such in Ancient Greece, but if we substitute the idea of a professional athlete I don't think he's far wrong.)

ATB

[jasonxx]

Cheers Marcus

I knew you would be the guy for the literal Knowledge. But its outhere some where that Alexander had no time for Athletes of the profesional type.

As you said I didnt mean body builders in the mould of todays Steroid pumped fat boys. They look like they have a rolled up carpet under each arm.You know the types


kenny

[amyntoros]

A pretty good rule of thumb if one is looking for small but seemingly familiar biographical details is to check Plutarch's Life first and his Moralia second. In this instance the info is to be found in his Life of Alexander.

Plutarch 4.11 "And in general, too, Alexander appears to have been averse to the whole race of athletes; at any rate, though he instituted very many contests, not only for tragic poets and players on the flute and players on the lyre, but also for rhapsodists, as well as for hunting of every sort and for fighting with staves, he took no interest in offering prizes either for boxing or for the pancratium."

Plutarch seems to have ignored the fact that Alexander organized many racing events during his campaigns, and I believe the point he is trying to make is that Alexander didn't favor what we might consider to be "professional" sports and athletes. I'm not sure if I can lay my hands on sources at short notice, but I'm fairly certain that the pancratium did involve a type of body building and a regimen that compares with that of professional athletes today. Both boxing and the pancratium (especially the latter) were quite brutal and not normally for casual contestants such as regular members of Alexander's army.

Then there's that business with Dioxippus and his "superlative strength" (Curtius 9.7.16.26 and also Diodorus 17.100) who defeated a Macedonian in single combat. The Macedonian wore full armor and carried a shield, sarissa, lance and sword, while Dixippus was naked except for a cloak and carried only a club, like Herakles. As Curtius says: "The outcome of the show dismayed Alexander, as well as the Macedonian soldiers, especially since the barbarians had been present, for he feared that a mockery had been made of the celebrated Macedonian valour. " This also might be one of the reasons behind Plutarch's statement.

Best regards,

[beausefaless]

We cant really dwell on the big black magnificent horse used by Oliver Stone.
What I have read is that the Ancient Western horses were really small not a lot larger than poneys.Your expertise here is excellent. Going on the basis that these horses were indeed small. Then in relation with Alexander Sitting on the horse etc we maybe braw a conclusion that Alexander was relatively Average in height

Greetings Kenny

I apologize for my late response to a good question. I've been too darn busy the last two weeks and I hope you will forgive my tardiness. I believe it would be best to give you a brief description of the warhorse around the time of Alexander.

When choosing a charger was, and is, soundness in wind and limb. The only 'ideal horse' description from our period is that of Xenophon. The basic correct conformation of a horse has changed little throughout history, good proportions and symmetry is the question, that enables a horse to function adequately along with a temperament that is amenable enough to be directed by the handler and rider.

With few exceptions, Xenophon's criteria for a good charger are still relevant for the modern saddle horse. Assyrian reliefs, which are in the British Museum, show many of Xenophon's ideals. Many representations of Greek sculptures show good equine conformation.

The neck should have no thick muscle underneath along with a clean throatlatch. These faults would have made the horse a 'stargazer' and harder to control, and because his gaze was directed upwards the horse was more prone to tripping and stumbling. The head should be small (bony), with small ears and small jaws. A high neck carriage may have guarded the rider in close contact maneuvers, but for missile weapon usage a lower head carriage was better as it gave a clearer sighting. The nostrils were thin, wide and flaring which enhanced respiration and a semblance of fierceness.

The body would be recognized as a short-coupled horse with a wide, strong loins, a well sprung ribcage without a gross belly. 'All these parts, if firm would ensure speed in the horse.' The hind quarters should be broad, the hind legs set well apart: this will enable to gather himself, which was the favoured way of showing the enemy being trampled. The warhorse could spring, turn in a confined space, spin so he always faced the enemy, and also launch an aggressive lunge and strike with the front hooves and teeth. The hind legs and hocks should be similar to the forearms: sinewy with sloping pasterns.

High withers and a 'double back' were highly desirable. This helped a rider keep in the proper 'sitting place'. Low withers and a narrow bonny back would have been very uncomfortable, even painful, and would have given a very insecure seat.

There is more but I'm sure and it appears you get the general idea. As to Alexander's height, I'll say he was no midget and no giant but no doubt, the man was built and the army were model specimens. Hope all is well!

Regards

Andrew

[jasonxx]

Andrew tyour feeedback was goodinfo brother. I thought your reasoning would give an adia,to dismiss the story that Macedonians were ^ foot Arnolt Szwrzeneggers. And The Rock.

Some still argue Macedoniand been on the 6 feet scale but I figure the same as the Romans on Average 5.6 in.

It wouyld be easy for the tactics and formations of the Romans to Beat the Northern Painted semibarbaric Armies just charging in willy nilly.

But a front line ofMasssed disciplened 6 feet Macedonians would be hard for the Romans to knock down. Your horse description gives a good adia of Alexanders Size.

Hail Brother

[paniskos]

I wouldnt expect the ancient hellenic lads to resemble gothic warriors of any kind or to look similarly with the Conan-like appearance of the current Austrian senator of California State.

Its not the Mediterranean standard, no...and moreover such body structure didnt seem to be popular at the time

However the Thebans and generally the Boiotians were indeed famed throughout the antiquity (and esp during the time of their hegemony in the whole of Hellas) for their big love for the male body (thats one of the reasons they were xtremely inclined to homosexual affairs) and as a result they methodically and excessively worked out their bodies to become the most robust and bulky amongst the greeks. I guess that in today terms they were the closest example to a modern guy who works his body in the gym and looks like a bodybuilder.

Same stands for the blondies. It seemed to be a rare characteristic making itself a unique symbol of male beauty.
btw I seriously doubt that when the Greeks said that somebody was blond had in mind the very same color with a Saxon or a Scadi using the same word. Its logical that if lets say Thor met the blond Greeks Achilleus or Apollon or Alex or Alkis would certainly mistake them for brunets rather than decent blondies in northern Europena terms....wouldnt he?

As for anybody seeking the first "Arian" race or whatever, u may look for it around the Persian Gulf (as the term was in use there in ancient times) and in ancient Thrace since it was occasionally called Areia by the Greeks cause according to the myths it was the birthplace of the god of war, Ares/Mars. Thus derives the usage of the word "Arian"/areios in greek (meaning warlike or having to do with the god Ares)
Nothing related with any race or blood really as far as the ancient greeks are concerned.


Regarding the heights I have that strong impression that the remains in the Marathon tomb didnt belong to any tall dudes.
On the other hand somewhere in the end of herodotos book 9 lies a rather strange comment about a number of extraordinary, nearly of giagantic size, skeletons found in the Plataia battlefield. Maybe thats some exagerating accounts of corpses belonging to "immortals".....Too bad that the Greek pottery seem to present the Persians dark haired and they cant make proper "arian" race


-The horses used by Hellenic armies and specifically the Thebans, the Thessalians and the Macs as well were certainly less capable and propable smaller than those used by the easterns. We know that when the army of Xerxes occupied Thessaly, he made a contest between the Thessalian horses which were the best in Hellas (Boukephalas was a Thessalian horse too) and his own ones. Well the Greek horses were by far well beaten. I wouldnt expect them to look like an arabic stallion running in the hippodrome but on the other hand the mounted part of the hetairoi which functions as a decisive shock troop in the battle should definately be mounted in good and hardy horses capable of withstanding a fierce charge against heavy infantry or against the best heavily armoured eastern cavalry. Such animals were plenty in the hellenistic successor states of the East but during Alexanders campaign he had to replace the horses of the cavalry more than oftenly.
Anyway no Greek horse was any match of -lets say- the famous "Nesaioi" horses which were bred in Media

[Efstathios]

paniskos, the ideal of the male beauty originated from Athens mainly.It was the athenian statues that represented this.Like the statue of Ermis in Olympia which was made by Praxitelis.The Thebeans were probably influenced by Athens ,as were many other hellenic city states.

Ermis of Praxitelis is the ideal of a male body, rounded and worked out, but not like the body of a body builder.Always according to the Greek saying "metron ariston" (which means something like "not to be excessive in anything").

[alejandro]

As for anybody seeking the first "Arian" race or whatever, u may look for it around the Persian Gulf (as the term was in use there in ancient times) and in ancient Thrace since it was occasionally called Areia by the Greeks cause according to the myths it was the birthplace of the god of war, Ares/Mars. Thus derives the usage of the word "Arian"/areios in greek (meaning warlike or having to do with the god Ares)
Nothing related with any race or blood really as far as the ancient greeks are concerned.

Regarding the heights I have that strong impression that the remains in the Marathon tomb didnt belong to any tall dudes.
On the other hand somewhere in the end of herodotos book 9 lies a rather strange comment about a number of extraordinary, nearly of giagantic size, skeletons found in the Plataia battlefield. Maybe thats some exagerating accounts of corpses belonging to "immortals".....Too bad that the Greek pottery seem to present the Persians dark haired and they cant make proper "arian" race

Hi Paniskos and all,

Regarding the Arian race, I heard a different story, but I am not sure whether it is true and would appreciate your input.

Basically the story is that the original Arian race originated in Eastern Iran/Western India, and then migrated to Europe, and so its members are also called "Indo-European".

I also heard that "Arian" means in their original language simply "Us", to differentiate themselves from other tribes (in the same way that Greeks differentiate between themselves and the barbarians). This may have also been the root for the name "Iran" (though I don't know how reliable this link is).

Also, if I remember it well, "Arian" is also related to the concept of "Better/Best", implicitly proclaiming their race better than the others. This may have then entered the Greek language and transformed into "Ariston" which (as far as I know) means also "better/best".

Of course I may be totally wrong/deluded, but I would appreciate your confirmations/comments/rebuttals.

All the best,
Alejandro

PS: And then of course, Arian became Arrian, which is "the best" extant source about Alexander

[paniskos]

paniskos, the ideal of the male beauty originated from Athens mainly.It was the athenian statues that represented this.Like the statue of Ermis in Olympia which was made by Praxitelis.The Thebeans were probably influenced by Athens ,as were many other hellenic city states.

Ermis of Praxitelis is the ideal of a male body, rounded and worked out, but not like the body of a body builder.Always according to the Greek saying "metron ariston" (which means something like "not to be excessive in anything").

well "stathes" u dont have to translate ancient greek to a native speaker
I well aware of "pan metron ariston" and the similar delfic "meden agan" as well

I also do know that the Boiotians are a different story than the Athenians. They were badly snobbed and underestimated by the Athenians and were considered unrefined and uncivilised compared to them. There are several phrases that indicate this such us "boiotios nous" (boiotian mind) used to define stupid people, "boiotian ys" (boiotian pig) used to describe dirty people and so on. Nothing to do with the Athenian standards. Just think that when theatrical plays were presented in certain boiotian cities, the audience was sometimes decsribed as unable to get the meaning!
The pursue for physical strenght amongst the Boiotians predated Praxiteles.
They had that unique appreciation of the physical strenght and they were after becoming the more muscular dudes in the hellenic world. Some people even claim that homosexual relations in the hellenic world originate from Thebai itself (though other disagree on this)

anyway we all agree I guess that there were no such thing as bodybuilders hanging around

-----------

Hi Paniskos and all,

Regarding the Arian race, I heard a different story, but I am not sure whether it is true and would appreciate your input.

Basically the story is that the original Arian race originated in Eastern Iran/Western India, and then migrated to Europe, and so its members are also called "Indo-European".

I also heard that "Arian" means in their original language simply "Us", to differentiate themselves from other tribes (in the same way that Greeks differentiate between themselves and the barbarians). This may have also been the root for the name "Iran" (though I don't know how reliable this link is). Confused

Also, if I remember it well, "Arian" is also related to the concept of "Better/Best", implicitly proclaiming their race better than the others. This may have then entered the Greek language and transformed into "Ariston" which (as far as I know) means also "better/best".

Of course I may be totally wrong/deluded, but I would appreciate your confirmations/comments/rebuttals.

alejandro, mate

I m not any glossologist/philologist but the IE theory is about a group of languages and there isnt yet any final and convincing story about where the people speaking those languages exactly came from...is there?
I just mentioned what areios (arian) meant for the ancient greeks and I underlined it had nothing to do with a specific race or blood type. The 2 areas I know and are named with a similar root lie in Thrace and in the Persian Gulf...thats all I said and unfortunately I know nothing more about IE stuff, sorry....

in the same way that Greeks differentiate between themselves and the barbarians

The word "barbarian" was at first used to describe people who were speaking a rough language/dialect that wasnt quite understandable to the "private club" of the city states which were bonded with the same gods and the same homeric tradition. It just comes from "bar bar bar" which is how those languages sounded to them. Its something like "bluh bluh bluh" (see how the IE languages resemble each other hehe)

Later on it was given an ethnical meaning. Well lets not hide that the Greeks had well developed a sense of regional and ethnical pride and they find an easy way to express it through that word, barbarian. Of course a "barbarian" could be civilised as well as uncivilised....it didnt have any meaning of lacking in culture (as some people may believe)

[Efstathios]

well "stathes" Wink u dont have to translate ancient greek to a native speaker Very Happy

I am translating it for our non Greek speakers

Of course a "barbarian" could be civilised as well as uncivilised....it didnt have any meaning of lacking in culture (as some people may believe)

Yes, but Aristotle had a different view on the matter.He used the word to describe those foreign people that had inferior civilizations to the Greek.

[pankration]

Pankratiatists fought an ancient version of mixed martial arts (UFC style). Consequently, many were bigger than normal men as weight and musculature could make a big difference in the ring. In all my research on the subject I have never found any information on Alexander not liking "bodybuilding" types. However, Alexander, who was himself an excellent wrestler and runner, did not think the Olympics fit for a ruler so he refused to participate. The story of Dioxippus besting a fully armored Macedonian while naked and using a club is now legendary. Although Alexander was not too happy about the result it must be remembered that Dioxippus was personally chosen for Alexander's bodyguard by the great one himself.