Continue from "Justin's book"

[maciek]

I can't add next post - having a message that it is to big so maybe it is a limit of posts in a row. Anyway John I'd like to continue in here or maybe someone else will shere his opinions with us.
It is possible John. But I've checked books too and Hammond (was the first I saw when I came back from my work) writes that Alex's death happened when Krateros was in his way to Macedonia (he was still in Asia) It donGÇÖt deny Your hypothesis but my impression is different. I think that Krateros was loyal to Alex (proofed it many time), Antipater could have a doubts because at this time Alex punished all who wasn't fair to their citizens. Antipater could think that in a occasion Alex can solve problem between him and Olimpias by removing him from the scene. Allthrough I think that Alex wanted only to separate Olimpias and Antipater not kill him. I think Antipater was about to receive some sathrapy and it was real disaster for everybody that Alex died then.Maciek

[John]

Maciek,Alexander sent Krateros (with Polysperchon) to Macedonia about a year before he (Alexander) died. So what took him (them) so long? Did Polysperchon make it? Why didn't Antipater leave Macedonia, as ordered by Alexander?As for Alexander's death by poison (since the subject of this thread is after all Justin), let me quote from Justin:"His [Alexander's] friends reported that the cause of his disease was excess in drinking, but in reality it was a conspiracy, the infamy of which the power of his successors threw into the shade. The author of this conspiracy was Antipater, who, seeing that his dearest friends were put to death, that Alexander Lyncestes, his son-in-law, was cut off, and that he himself, after his important services in Greece, was not so much liked by the king as envied by him, and was also persecuted with various charges by his mother Olympias; reflecting, too, on the severe penalties inflicted, a few days before, on the governers of the conquered nations, and hence imagining that he was sent for from Macedonia, not to share in the war, but to suffer punishment, secretely, in order to be beforehand with Alexander, furnished his son Cassander with poison, who, with his brothers Philippus and Iollas, was accustomed to attend on the king at table. The strength of this poison was so great, that it could be contained neither in brass, nor iron, nor shell, nor could be contained in any other way than in the hoof of a horse. Cassander had been warned to trust nobody but the Thessalian and his brothers; and hence it was that the banquet was prepared and renewed in the house of the Thessalian. Philippus and Iollas, who used to taste and mix the king's drink, had the poison ready in cold water, which they put into the drink after it had been tasted."Or maybe the poison was transported in the horses hoof to avoid detection? Or maybe the whole story was made up? You be the judge.John

[maciek]

Nice talkin to You John!!!
I will start from the end: Justin is not much relieble source and You sould not belive it to much. Of course it is very importand source as it is only one from existing 6 sources from ancient times. I want to have all six but until now I have only four. So it is an importand source but other authors states that situation was not so clear as Justin wrote it. We will never now the truth we can only belive or not some hypothesis on this subiect. I belive it was not treason but illnes.
Antipater had order to leave Macedonia after Krateros's coming so just had to wait.
And at last I can't remember what period before Alex's death he was sended but Hammond is good Alex's historian and is no need to doubt his opinion. I will check it this evening in all ancient sources I have to have a complete picture of it. You are right that a year for such travel is much too long. For Alex took a year to come from Ilion to Issus with no straight way and with sieges and battles by the way, so travel from Babilon to Pella couldnt take a year. But what I read yesterday in Hammond "Ancient Macedonia" was that Alex's death occured when Krateros was still in Asia. I think Marcus was right saying about the deley in Krateros's travell if so it seams clear why he couldn't come. I think I read someware that Krateros was Ill (as Marcus pointed) and Polyperchont was the man who brote the troops back to Macedonia but I have to check it because my memory is not as good as like to be it. Regards
Maciek

[John]

Maciek,Here's the poison story from another source - Diodorus:"They say that Antipater, who had been left by Alexander as viceroy in Europe, was at variance with the king's mother Olympias. At first he did not take her seriously because Alexander did not heed her complaints against him, but later, as their enmity kept growing and the king showed an anxiety to gratify his mother in everything out of piety, Antipater gave many indications of his disaffection. This was bad enough, but the murder of Parmenio and Philotas struck terror into Antipater as into all of Alexander's Friends, so by the hand of his own son, who was the king's wine-pourer, he administered poison to the king. After Alexander's death, Antipater held the supreme authority in Europe and then his son Casander took over the kingdom, so that many historians did not dare write about the drug. Casander, however, is plainly disclosed by his own actions as a bitter enemy of Alexander's policies. He murdered Olympias and threw her body out without burial, and with great enthusiasm restored Thebes, which had been destroyed by Alexander."John

[marcus]

Hi Maciek,You have pointed something out that I had never thought of before (doh!) - that of course Antipater couldn't leave Macedonia until Krateros arrived... and if Krateros was held up because he was ill, it's hardly surprising that Antipater was still there!As you've probably gathered, I'm with you on the poisoning theory - I simply don't believe it. I have to admit that the argument that John puts forward, from Justin, is a compelling one, but I don't think it is compelling enough. Had the business about it being so strong that it could only be carried in a horse's hoof was not in it I'd find it more believable - poor old Justin, letting himself down at the last minute! :-)All the bestMarcus

[maciek]

"Antipater couldn't leave Macedonia until Krateros arrived... and if Krateros was held up because he was ill, it's hardly surprising that Antipater was still there!"
I don't know what You mean Marcus - if Krateros didn't showup in Pella assuming that Antipater waited for it so why it is supprising that Antipater was still there. I'm sorry it's propably my poor english cousing this misunderstanding- so could You explain it to me. Thanx
Maciek

[John]

I think too much is being made out of Krateros' illness. He was ill when Alexander sent him to Macedonia, which is why Alexander sent Polysperchon with him, so that, if Krateros' illness got the better of him, Polysperchon could take over command of the men being sent to Macedonia. And Polysperchon could "tag" Antipater to leave Macedonia.John

[maciek]

This one I can't agree - I think that before Krateros coming it was no way that Antipater could leave Macedonia. Situation was so tense that if he would leave everything could happened and it could appeare that Krateros have to fight with Olimpias when he would come there.Polysperchon was young and was only support for the old commander but I don't think that Alex would give him gouvering over Macedonia. Krateros was the best man could deal with Olimpias and Antipater had strong reasons to wait for Krateros.Maciek

[John]

Yes, we disagree.#1 - Arrian calls Polysperchon "the officer next in seniority to Craterus."#2 - ANYway, I'm not even sure Antipater was supposed to wait for them to show up in Macedonia.Speak, Arrian:"...he [Alexander] bade Craterus conduct them [the Macedonians], and when he had brought them safe home, to take charge of Macedonia, Thrace, and Thessaly, and the freedom of Greece. Then he ordered Antipater to bring drafts of Macedonians of full age to replace those that were being sent home. He despatched also Polysperchon with Craterus, who was the officer next in seniority to Craterus, so that in case of harm coming to Craterus on the way, since he sent him as an invalid, the travellers should not lack a leader."John

[maciek]

All wright John You are right my mistake was I wasn't read those sources yesterday evening and last time I read Arrian is few months ago. It seams that they bouth was in similar age so my post was wrong about Polysperchon's age and his expirience. But still there is nothing about revolt beeing raized by Antipater and Crateros (Polysperchon in Crateros's absence). They could have some idea of it but I doubt it. As You wrote about Antipater's terror among the historians which feared speaking and writing the truth I think that from the other hand Olimpias spreaded rumours about Antipater's role in the assasination. She was clever enough to prepare such rumours or even some fake evidences. What is my strongest point (strongest for me) about it - it is a role of Aristotele who I belive couldn't do enything like that. I read article in polish magazine about ancient history:"Maeander number from 1947 " in which very good polish historian Marian Plezia wrote about Aristotele character. He based on three sources which can only help here: Aristotele last will, his poetics and last is letter which was sended from Aristotele to Alexander in 330. From all this he drawn a conclusion that Aristotele was faithfull and trusted to his friend. Also from the letter I had a feeling that Aristotele was in close contact with Alex (what we know) but because of this contact he changed his opinion about many aspects - like Persians as Greek's slaves or organisation of inited country. This letter seams to me as a very importand source about Alexander - until it we knew that noone of it's corespondency survived but Plezia made very detailed researches - with support of orientalists as the letter was written in arabil language. All right It is not about a subject. Well anyway I think Aristotele wasn't the man who could be in such team and we know that he was close friend to Antipater and if it was such assasination prepared he might know about it. Maciek

[marcus]

No misunderstanding at all Maciek - you made exactly the right point.Marcus

[marcus]

But who carried the order to Antipater? If it was an order that Krateros was to deliver, and Krateros never showed up, then the order will not have been delivered...My Greek isn't good enough to be able to tell whether Arrian actually makes it clear that Antipater had already received the order - but it wouldn't surprise me if Arrian were not entirely clear about this.All the bestMarcus

[susan]

I'm not sure where to join in this thread... but an extra snippet - Crateros overwintered in Cilicia - and guess who was probably there - Phila, Antipater's daughter whom he subsequently married. Her husband, Balacros, had been satrap - he was killed in a skirmish. The timing is a bit confused - but suppose Balacros dies before Crateros gets there, Phila and Crateros have known each other since childhood, she nurses him back to health, he accompanies her back to Antipater - the farther he is from Babylon the more ties there are to Antipater and Macedon. If Alexander objected to the pace he couldn't really send another expedition to tell him to hurry up, could he ?I don't think Alexander was poisoned -by the end he seemed quite paranoid about his fears and yet in the several days lead-up to death he didn't raise it, even though being seen by the rank-and-file of his troops.Susan

[marcus]

Good point, Susan. I didn't know about Phila being there - although I think I did know she was married to Balacros.So Krateros was pretty close to Macedonia, even if he hadn't crossed the Hellespont. There must have been a fairly decent line of communication with Antipater, and therefore even if Alexander's order went north with Krateros, there wasn't really any reason why Antipater shouldn't have got it before Krateros ever got to Pella.All the bestMarcus

[susa]

:(You guys are having fun..... :(Pity i couldn't even think of joining in.....Ha! That's what i get for cutting my History classes... :)May the strongest win the argument!