Bagoas left behind in Hyrcania

[spitamenes]

Are there Any situations in the ancient world where a king or commander of a military campaign had put an unlikely person in charge of an important task? Just wondering if it has happened, or if it would have probably been as out of place then, as it would be now. I am assuming that a eunuch would be an unlikely candidate for a leadership position in ancient times of course. Not because of him being a eunuch, but just from a logical standpoint. WHY would Alexander give him command of this vessel? There is seemingly no positive propaganda to be had from this maneuver. If anything, there would be quite a few high ranking individuals who would be very ticked about being denied and passed over for this position because Alexander wanted to put his eunuch in command. Anyone who is as deep into the story of Alexander as most here on pothos has, in a way, created they're own Alexander. I do not see the Alexander I know taking what seems to be a risk like this for no logical reason whatsoever. If anyone has a reason for him doing such a thing I would be interested in hearing it.

[agesilaos]

How about Alexander appointing Pharnouches the the translator to command the column wiped out at Polytimetos?

Taphoi a book and chapter reference would be more helpful; or even posting the quote.

Arethusa, I am not saying your theory is wrong, or even unnattractive; I am undecided, decidedly.

[Arethusa33]

Hi all,

Here is the list of the trierarchs of the Hydaspes Fleet (326 BC)
Arrian, Indica, 18.3-8)

As trierarchs he appointed the following Macedonians : Hephaestion son of Amyntor, Leonnatus son of Eunous, Lysimachus son of Agathocles, Asclepiodorus son of Timander, Archon son of Clinias, Demonicus son of Athenaeus, Archias son of Anaxidotus, Ophellas son of Silenus, Timanthes son of Pantiades, all from Pella. The following commanders came from Amphipolis : Nearchus son of Androtimus, who recorded the coastal voyage, Laomedon son of Larichus, Androsthenes son of Callistratus ; the following from Orestis : Craterus son of Alexander, and Perdiccas son of Orontes. Ptolemy son of Lagos and Aristonous son of Pisaeus were Eordaeans ; Metron son of Epicharmus and Nicarchides son of Simus came from Pydna.In addition, Attalus son of Andromenes came from Tympha, Peucestas son of Alexander from Mieza, Pithon son of Crateuas from Alcomenae, Leonnatus son of Antipater from Aegae, Pantauchus son of Nicolaus from Aloris, Mylleas son of Zoilus from Beroa. All these were Macedonians. As for Greeks, Medius son of Oxythemis came from Larisa, Eumenes son of Hieronymus from Cardia, Critobulus son of Plato from Cos, Thoas son of Mandrodorus and Maeander son of Mandrogenes from Magnesia, Andron son of Cabeleus from Teos ; Nicocles son of Pasicrates from Soli, and Nitaphon son of Pnytagoras from Salamis were Cypriotes. Alexander also even appointed a Persian, Bagoas son of Pharnuches, trierarch.The helmsman of Alexander's own ship was Onesicritus from Astypalaea ; and the secretary for the whole fleet was Evagoras son of Eucleon from Corinth. As admiral he appointed Nearchus, son of Androtimus, a Cretan by lineage, who lived in Amphipolis on the Strymon.

In the who's who in the age of Alexander the Great by Waldemar Heckel, I found this :

Pharnuches. Lycian by birth but an expert in the languages of Bactria and Sogdiana.He had probably entered Alexander's entourage after the death of Darius, unless he was found in one of the Persian capitals. He was sent in 329 with Menedemus,Caranus, and Andromachus against the rebel Spitamenes (Arrian 4.3.7). The force was, however, ambushed at the Polytimetus River and annihilated (A 4.5.3-9 = Ptolemy, FGrH 138 F34).In Aristobulus' version, Pharnuches attempted to resign his command but found no one willing to accept it (A 4.6.1-2 = FGrH 139 F27). Pharnuches was almost certainly the father of Bagoas the trierarch (Arrian Indica 18). But the identity of this Bagoas is less certain.

[Arethusa33]

Arethusa, I am not saying your theory is wrong, or even unnattractive; I am undecided, decidedly.

But please, tell me Agesilaos, do you find it plausible ? Or totally extravagant ?

[marcus]

I am assuming that a eunuch would be an unlikely candidate for a leadership position in ancient times of course. Not because of him being a eunuch, but just from a logical standpoint. WHY would Alexander give him command of this vessel?

I can't remember where I read it, now, but I do remember there being a well-argued case for the trierarchs not to have been the actual commanders of the vessels, but to have been the people who sponsored (for want of a better word) the building of the vessels. After all, we see Craterus and Perdiccas as trierarchs, but that doesn't mean that they actually commanded the ships, just that they 'sponsored' the building and maintenance of the ships.

ATB

[Alexias]

Alexias, I can understand the debate about the trierarch Bagoas son of Pharnuches but I can't understand why you deny the existence of Euxenippos.

At what point did I say that Euxenippus did not exist?

You appear to be incapable of understanding the logic of what I am saying. For the third time therefore:

1. Your theory is that Bagoas the eunuch was left behind in Hyrcania. A plausible theory, although personally I'm not entirely convinced.

2. Euxenippus may be identifiable with Bagoas the eunuch. A plausible theory, although personally I'm not entirely convinced

3. Bagoas son of Pharnabuces may be identifiable with Bagoas the eunuch.

4. None of the above theories can be definitively proven.

5. Therefore, by all laws of logic, no one of the above theories can be used to prove or disprove another one of the theories. This is what I was objecting to in your original statement that

In 326 BC, he couldn't be at the same time in Hyrcania and commander of a trireme on the banks of the Hydaspes.

I'm not going to bother repeating this again

[agesilaos]

[80.] Alexander the king was also very much in the habit of giving in to this fashion. Accordingly, Dicaearchus, in his treatise On the Sacrifice at Troy, says that he was so much under the influence of Bagoas the eunuch, that he embraced him in the sight of the whole theatre; and that when the whole theatre shouted in approval of the action, he repeated it. And Carystius, in his Historical Commentaries, says,- "Charon of Chalcis had a boy of great beauty, who was a great favourite of his: but when Alexander, on one occasion, at a great entertainment given by Craterus, praised this boy very much, Charon bade the boy go and salute Alexander: and he said, 'Not so, for he will not please me so much as he will vex you.' For though the king was of a very amorous disposition, still he was at all times sufficiently master of himself to have a due regard to decorum, and to the preservation of appearances. And in the same spirit, when he had taken as prisoners the daughters of Dareius, and his wife, who was of extraordinary beauty, he not only abstained from offering them any insult, but he took care never to let them feel that they were prisoners at all; but ordered them to be treated in every respect, and to be supplied with everything, just as if Dareius had still been in his palace; on which account, Dareius, when he heard of this conduct, raised his hands to the Sun and prayed that either he might be king, or Alexander."

Athenaeus Book 13

Aelian III 23
On the four and twentieth he supp'd with Bagoas. (The house of Bagoas was from the Palace ten Stadia.)

Plutarch Alx 67
8 We are told, too, that he was once viewing some contests in singing and dancing, being well heated with wine, and that his favourite, Bagoas, won the prize for song and dance, and then, all in his festal array, passed through the theatre and took his seat by Alexander's side; at sight of which the Macedonians clapped their hands and loudly bade the king kiss the victor, until at last he threw his arms about him and kissed him tenderly.

Quitillian inst orat V 12
21 When the masters of sculpture and hand desired to carve or paint forms of ideal beauty, they never fell into the error of taking some Bagoas or Megabyzus137 as models, but rightly selected the well-known Doryphorus,138 equally adapted either for the fields of war or for the wrestling school, and other warlike and athletic youths as types of physical beauty. Shall we then, who are endeavouring to mould the ideal orator, equip eloquence not with weapons but with timbrels?

Curtius VI 5 xxiii
23 Inter quae Bagoas erat, specie singulari spado atque in ipso flore pueritiae, cui et Dareus adsuetus fueratº et mox Alexander p127adsuevit:

X 1 xxiv
Nam cum omnes amicos regis donis super ipsorum vota coluisset, Bagoae spadoni, qui Alexandrum obsequio corporis devinxerat sibi, nullum honorem habuit: 26 admonitusque a quibusdam, perquamº Alexandro cordi esse, respondit, amicos regis, non scorta se colere nec moris esse Persis, mares ducere, qui stupro effeminarentur. 27 His auditis spado potentiam flagitio et dedecore quaesitam in caput nobilissimi et insontis exercuit. Namque gentis eiusdem levissimos falsis criminibus adstruxit monitos, tum demum ea deferre, cum ipse iussisset. 28 Interim quotiens sine arbitris erat, credulas regis aures inplebat dissimulans causam irae, quo gravior criminantis auctoritas esset. 29 Nondum suspectus erat Orsines, iam tamen vilior. Reus enim in secreto agebatur, latentis periculi ignarus, et inportunissumum scortum ne in stupro quidem et dedecoris patientia fraudis oblitum, quotiens amorem regis in se accenderat, Orsinen modo avaritiae, interdum etiam defectionis arguebat. 30 Iam matura erant in perniciem innocentis mendacia et p260fatum, cuius inevitabilis sors est, adpetebat. Forte enim sepulcrum Cyri Alexander iussit aperiri, in quo erat conditum eius corpus, cui dare volebat inferias. 31 Auro argentoque repletumº esse crediderat — quippe ita fama Persae vulgaverant — sed praeter clipeum eius putrem et arcus duos Scythicos et acinacem nihil repperit. 32 Ceterum corona aurea inposita amiculo, cui adsueverat ipse, solium, in quo corpus iacebat, velavit, miratus tanti nominis regem tantis praeditum opibus haud pretiosius sepultum esse, quam si fuisset e plebe. 33 Proximus erat lateri spado, qui regem intuens, 'Quid mirum,' inquit, 'est inania sepulcra esse regum, cum satraparum domus aurum inde egestum capere non possint? 34 Quod ad me attinet, ipse hoc bustum antea non videram, sed ex Dareo ita accepi, III milia talentum condita esse cum Cyro. 35 Hinc illa benignitas in te, ut, quod impune habere non poterat Orsines, donando etiam gratiam iniret.' 36 Concitaverat iam animum in iram, cum hi, quibus negotium idem dederat, superveniunt. Hinc Bagoas, hinc ab eo subornati falsis criminibus occupant aures. 37 Antequam accusari se suspicaretur, Orsines in vincula est traditus. Non contentus supplicio insontis spado ipse morituro manum iniecit. Quem Orsines intuens, 'Audieram,' inquit, 'in Asia olim regnasse feminas, hoc vero novum est regnare castratum!'


So two out of six mentions, too small a sample to make any statistical judgement but what we have to consider is why do Dichaearchos and Curtius at X 1 xxiv seem to emphasise the fact of Bagoas' castration; Dichaearchos was a pupil of Aristotle and it seems had a distinctly moralising tone decrying the symposiastic culture of his Greece in his 'Life of Greece', which, perhaps significantly, was only brought down to the end of Philip II's reign. Why should he write about an event in Gedrosia years after 'The Sacrifice at Ilion'. Surely, it is to censure Alexander, and so the fact that Bagoas was a eunuch becomes pertinent to the charge of Oriental excess, it is not used as a title to identify him. Similarly Curtius purpose is to point up his bot mot 'We have heard how Asia was once ruled by women, but it is truely novel for the castrated to rule!' .

[agesilaos]

Aresthusa, I think it a very plausible theory.

[Arethusa33]

Aresthusa, I think it a very plausible theory.

Thanks for your answer, Agesilaos and also for all those excerpts of ancient sources. It is very interesting and very useful to the discussion.

[Arethusa33]

Alexias, I can understand the debate about the trierarch Bagoas son of Pharnuches but I can't understand why you deny the existence of Euxenippos.

At what point did I say that Euxenippus did not exist?

You appear to be incapable of understanding the logic of what I am saying.

I'm sorry Alexias, I've probably read too many posts of too many different posters.But put the blame on Taphoi. He repeats endlessly that Euxenippos didn't exist and I end up believing that everybody agree with him.

You made me smile when you said that Bagoas after 5 years may have lost his looks. I am not very familiar with eunuchs. Did they castrate them to keep them beautiful as long as possible ? We can imagine that Bagoas was as beautiful as ever when Alexander kissed him after the dance contest.

[agesilaos]

But put the blame on Taphoi. He repeats endlessly that Euxenippos didn't exist and I end up believing that everybody agree with him.

You won't find much I agree with Taphoi about but this is one; he is absolutely correct about this character having his origin in Heidecke's fetid imagination. The Loeb Curtius has the apparatus criticus and Taphoi posted a scan of an older edition somewhere. The best texts are the Teubner but lacking a translation and being quite expensive they are really for serious scholars, old school, most undergrads here are taught from translations and the best Paleography dept has been shut down; OTOM

[spitamenes]

Was the eunuch Bagoas referred to as "Bagoas The eunuch" at any time during the translations? And if so, would it be more likely for him to be referred to as such in this situation as well? Just curious.

[Arethusa33]

But put the blame on Taphoi. He repeats endlessly that Euxenippos didn't exist and I end up believing that everybody agree with him.

You won't find much I agree with Taphoi about but this is one; he is absolutely correct about this character having his origin in Heidecke's fetid imagination. The Loeb Curtius has the apparatus criticus and Taphoi posted a scan of an older edition somewhere. The best texts are the Teubner but lacking a translation and being quite expensive they are really for serious scholars, old school, most undergrads here are taught from translations and the best Paleography dept has been shut down; OTOM

But there is a contradiction there in Taphoi's theory.

Because Bagoas has already been introduced by Curtius in book 6 # 5.23 :

[Nabarzanes] who now brought Alexander lavish gifts, including Bagoas, an exceptionally good-looking eunuch in the very flower of his youth.
Bagoas is described there as if there was no one who could match his beauty (exceptionally good-looking).

And then, in book 7 # 9.19, Curtius described Euxenippus, who according to Taphoi is also Bagoas.He introduces him again, as if he had never talked of him before and with a different description :

Euxenippus was still very young and a favourite of Alexander's because he was in the prime of his youth, but though he rivalled Hephaestion in good looks he could not match him in charm, since he was rather effeminate.

For me, it is clearly 2 different descriptions of 2 different youths. I don't think that Curtius would have described the youth(Euxenippus) that way if this youth had been Bagoas.

[Paralus]

I can't remember where I read it, now, but I do remember there being a well-argued case for the trierarchs not to have been the actual commanders of the vessels, but to have been the people who sponsored (for want of a better word) the building of the vessels. After all, we see Craterus and Perdiccas as trierarchs, but that doesn't mean that they actually commanded the ships, just that they 'sponsored' the building and maintenance of the ships.

ATB

That became standard practice in Athens over the period of the Peloponnesian War and more so into the fourth century. What applied for Athens, where crews and captains were hired from the Aegean, is not so likely to apply to a mobile state at war - Alexander's army in the middle of modern Pakistan. Whole crews and responsible captains were, I suspect,rather less likely to be found offering their services in Pakistan in anywhere near numbers available to an Athens.

[spitamenes]

My apologies, my question of if Bagoas was referred to specifically as "Bagoas the eunuch" was answered in a post shortly above my question.
So another question that would add to plausibility would be, could they have been referring to "Bagoas the eunuch", as such in order to not get him confused with a different Bagoas? Like saying "Alexander...son of Philip" so people reading would not confuse him with a different Alexander in the story? (Just an example).