The Length of His Reign

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agesilaos
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The Length of His Reign

Post by agesilaos »

We have two statements concerning the length of Alexander’s reign;-

Arrian VII 28 i
ἐβίω δὲ δύο καὶ τριάκοντα ἔτη καὶ τοῦ τρίτου μῆνας ἐπέλαβεν ὀκτώ, ὡς λέγει Ἀριστόβουλος: 1ἐβασίλευσε δὲ δώδεκα ἔτη καὶ τοὺς ὀκτὼ τούτους μῆνας
According to the statement of Aristobulus, he lived thirty-two years, and had reached the eighth month of his thirty-third year. He had reigned twelve years and these eight months
And Diodorus XVII 117 v
οὗτος μὲν οὖν τὸν προειρημένοντρόπον ἐτελεύτησε βασιλεύσας ἔτη δώδεκα καὶ μῆνας ἑπτά,
This was how he died after a reign of twelve years and seven months.
Both agree on the Twelve Years but Arrian’s source, explicitly Aristoboulos, gives eight months whereas Diodorus’, probably Kleitarchos, has seven. This is usually reconciled by saying Aristoboulos’ count was inclusive and Diodoros’ exclusive, so Welles in his Loeb note. However, 323 was an embolimic year with an additional Xanthikos so it could be that Aristoboulos is taking this into account and this explains his phrase ‘okto toutous menas’ these same eight months; he is warning the reader to count eight months back, which because of the extra month brings you to Apellaios (Oct/Nov) inclusive or Dios (Sept/Oct) exclusive. Diodoros’ source simply ignores the intercalary month.

Now, it is almost certain that Kleitarchos had read Aristoboulos so why would he try and correct an historian who had been at the court? It is one of Kleitarchos’ traits to ‘correct’ previous historians, eg the size of Babylon’s Walls, the number of Concubines of Darius. Presumably he knew the month of Alexander’s accession and we know that Aristoboulos stated that he died 30 Daesios from Plutarch he then counted back without the intercalary month and found Aristoboulos had erred and, no doubt, very smugly ‘corrected’ him! Unfortunately we cannot say whether the counting is inclusive or exclusive but we can say that the month of Alexander’s accession was also that of his birth. Which means Plutarch’s date of 6 Hekatombaion/Loios is wrong making all horoscopes based on that date doomed at their conception.
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Re: The Length of His Reign

Post by Alexias »

So, Alexander is a Scorpio rather than a Leo! :wink:

Scorpio from http://www.astrology.com:
Scorpios concern themselves with beginnings and endings, and are unafraid of either; they also travel in a world that is black and white and has little use for gray. The curiosity of Scorpios is immeasurable, which may be why they are such adept investigators. These folks love to probe and know how to get to the bottom of things. The fact that they have a keen sense of intuition certainly helps.

The Scorpion symbolizes Scorpio, and that is no accident. Much like the Scorpion would rather kill itself than be killed, those born under this sign are in ultimate control of their destiny. It is life on the Scorpion's terms, too, since these folks promote their agenda (they are quite the executives) and see to it that things go forward. Others may find this overbearing (it can be) and even self-destructive, but that's the beauty of the Scorpio: they have tremendous regenerative powers, much like the literal Scorpion can lose its tail and promptly grow a new one. Fearless Scorpios rarely lose; they just keep on going, since they are stubborn and determined to succeed (this Scorpio trait is in keeping with the Fixed Quality assigned to this sign). Scorpios work as hard as they do so they can someday sit back and feel satisfied with themselves. These folks are intense, passionate and filled with desire. They're also complex and secretive, so don't expect to get much out of them, lest they become suspicious and exit stage left. It's best not to bet against Scorpios, either, since these folks are surprisingly resourceful.

Scorpio is ruled by Mars and Pluto. Mars was the God of War in ancient Roman mythology
Leo:
These folks are impossible to miss, since they love being center stage. Making an impression is Job One for Leos, and when you consider their personal magnetism, you see the job is quite easy. Leos are an ambitious lot, and their strength of purpose allows them to accomplish a great deal. The fact that these folks are also creative makes their endeavors fun for them and everyone else. It's quite common to see a Leo on stage or in Hollywood, since these folks never shy away from the limelight. They are also supremely talented and have a flair for the dramatic. Warmth and enthusiasm seems to seep from every Leo pore, making these folks a pleasure to be around. They do love pleasure!

It's the Lion that symbolizes Leos, and the king (or queen) of the jungle is a most appropriate mascot, since they consider themselves the rulers of their universe (and the zodiac at that). Like Lions, Leos tend to be dignified and strong, and itÕs this sense of their power that allows them to get things done. A Leo on your team is a good thing, since Lions are eager to see their projects through to completion. Putting these folks at the helm is a good thing, too, since the Leo-born are natural leaders. They may ruffle a few feathers along the way, however, since they can also be overbearing and somewhat autocratic. This may be in keeping with the Fixed Quality assigned to this sign -- Lions are indeed opinionated and set in their ways. That said, they are well organized, idealistic and have a knack for inspiring others.
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Re: The Length of His Reign

Post by Taphoi »

Alexias wrote:So, Alexander is a Scorpio rather than a Leo! :wink:
No. He is not. Agesilaos is only giving you part of the evidence, so as to reach a revelatory conclusion. You also need to know:

1) Plutarch's date appears to come from Timaeus, the leading chronologist of Alexander's age. He is a better authority on Alexander's dates than Aristobulus and a much better authority than Arrian.

2) Arrian says at the opening of his work (1.1.1) that Alexander was "around about 20" when he came to the throne. That was probably sourced from Aristobulus too. It looks as though Arrian incorrectly concocted his statement that Alexander was 32 years and 8 months old when he died from two correct but separate statements in Aristobulus: a) Alexander was around about 20 when he came to the throne; b) Alexander reigned for 12 years and 8 months.

As Agesilaos has noted, Plutarch had read Aristobulus, but nevertheless gave explicit calendar dates for Alexander's birth and death that equate to a lifespan of 32 years 10 months and 20 days in our calendar. Even if Aristobulus explicitly gave 32 years and 8 months (and he probably did not), Plutarch read very many primary sources and rejected Arrian's lifespan figure in favour of the longer lifespan that he got from Timaeus and the Ephemerides.

The explicit date for Alexander's birth in Plutarch is clearly preferable unless you are one of the true believers in the infallibility of Arrian (notwithstanding the fact that he is the latest of the main 5 surviving sources on Alexander and was further from Alexander than we are from Shakespeare).

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Re: The Length of His Reign

Post by agesilaos »

First on the mighty Timaeus’ chronological excellence, your simple faith was not shared by those who actually read him;

Dionysius of Halikarnassos 'Roman Antiquities' Book I
74 As to the last settlement or founding of the city, or whatever we ought to call it, Timaeus of Sicily,196 following what principle I do not know, places it at the same time as the founding of Carthage, that is, in the thirty-eighth year before the first Olympiad;197 Lucius Cincius, a member of the senate, places it about the fourth year of the twelfth Olympiad,198 and Quintus Fabius in the first year of the eighth Olympiad.199 2 Porcius Cato does not give the time according to Greek reckoning, but being as careful as any writer in gathering the date of ancient history, he places its founding four hundred and thirty-two years after the Trojan war; and this time, being compared with the Chronicles of Eratosthenes,200 corresponds to the first year of the seventh Olympiad.201 That the canons of Eratosthenes are sound I have shown in another treatise,202 where I have also shown how the Roman chronology is to be synchronized with that of the Greeks.
Polybios 12
4a Who could continue to pardon such faults, especially when committed by Timaeus who is so fond of cavilling at similar blemishes in others? 2 For instance, he accuses Theopompus of stating that Dionysius was conveyed from Sicily to Corinth in a merchant ship, whereas he really travelled in a warship, 3 and again he falsely accuses Ephorus of making a blunder because he tells us that the elder Dionysius began to reign at the age of twenty-three, reigned for forty-two years, and died at the age of sixty-three. 4 For surely no one could say that the mistake here was the author's, but it is obviously the scribe's. 5 Either Ephorus must have surpassed Coroebus and MargitesJJJ in stupidity if he could not reckon that forty-two added to twenty-three make sixty-five, 6 or as nobody would believe this of Ephorus, the mistake is evidently due to the scribe. No one, however, could approve of Timaeus' love of cavilling and fault-finding.



This is especially interesting since it concerns the length of a reign and a life which far from checking against other records and adducing these he seems merely to have relied on the seemingly faulty mathematics.

All the same Plutarch probably took his information from Hegesias not Timaeus,
5 Be that as it may, Alexander was born early in the month Hecatombaeon,5 the Macedonian name for which is Loüs, on the sixth day of the month, and on this day the temple of Ephesian Artemis was burnt. 6 It was apropos of this that Hegesias the Magnesian made an utterance frigid enough to have extinguished that great conflagration. He said, namely, it was no wonder that the temple of Artemis was burned down, since the goddess was busy bringing Alexander into the world. 7 But all the Magi who were then at Ephesus, looking upon the temple's disaster as a sign of further disaster, ran about beating their faces and crying aloud that woe and great calamity for Asia had that day been born. 8 To Philip, however, who had just taken Potidaea, there came three messages at the same time: the first that Parmenio had conquered the Illyrians in a great battle, the second that his race-horse had won a victory at the Olympic games, while a third announced the birth of Alexander. 9 These things delighted him, of course, and the seers raised his hopes still higher by declaring that the son whose birth coincided with three victories would be always victorious.
Just to be complete Cicero does say in De Natura Deum (On The Nature of the Gods)
There is a remark of Timæus which, like many of his, shows ingenuity; after saying in his history that the temple of the Ephesian Diana had been burnt down on the same night that Alexander was born, he added that that was by no means to be wondered at, since Diana wishing to be present at the delivery of Olympias had been absent from her home.
The simplest explanation would be that Cicero has erred, as it is hard to imagine anyone, especially a writer noted for the ‘frigidity’ of his prose (pseudo-Longinus), choosing to repeat such a lame statement, the Tullian Chickpea’s judgement notwithstanding.
Arrian says
εἶναι δὲ τότε ἀμφὶ τὰ εἴκοσιν ἔτη Ἀλέξανδρον
At that time Alexander was about twenty years old.

No ‘around about’ either one but not both; nor does it follow that Arrian took this opening summary from Aristoboulos, more probably it was his own work and the ‘amphi’ about, is due to him possibly not being sure that Alexander had had his twentieth birthday by the time he ascended the throne; I have no doubt that a contemporary flatterer, like Aristoboulos, would have known but it would seem he made no mention of it; his History may have started with the expedition into Asia and not the beginning of the reign.

Good try at confusing Aristoboulos’ contempory statement with Arrian’s later transcription information has to be judged on the source (if possible) not the transmitter (unless there is reason to suspect a sloppy worker – such as Diodoros).
The explicit date for Alexander's birth in Plutarch is clearly preferable unless you are one of the true believers in the infallibility of Arrian (notwithstanding the fact that he is the latest of the main 5 surviving sources on Alexander and was further from Alexander than we are from Shakespeare).
As mentioned it is in Aristoboulos I place my trust, rather than Arrian. Justin is much later than Arrian but the point is moot since these secondary sources must be ranked by the quality of the primary sources they used. Arrian used Ptolemy and Aristoboulos two men close to Alexander who were on the expedition. Curtius certainly used Ptolemy, but, like the earlier Diodoros seems to have preferred the account of the later Kleitarchos who had not been present during events. Plutarch, whom it must be remembered is not writing history, is an amalgam of many sources and probably cod-sources too, which is the real reason he does not notice the anomaly between Aristoboulos’ dates and the birthdate he has given, he is not correlating and evaluating many sources, simply cherry-picking illuminating and interesting stories. Justin, of course goes back to Trogus a contemporary of Diodoros who may have based his work largely on Kleitarchos or a derivative. So due to his use of true primary sources Arrian’s account preserves the earliest strands of the major five sources.
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Re: The Length of His Reign

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agesilaos wrote:Arrian says
εἶναι δὲ τότε ἀμφὶ τὰ εἴκοσιν ἔτη Ἀλέξανδρον
At that time Alexander was about twenty years old.

No ‘around about’ either one but not both; nor does it follow that Arrian took this opening summary from Aristoboulos, more probably it was his own work and the ‘amphi’ about, is due to him possibly not being sure that Alexander had had his twentieth birthday by the time he ascended the throne...
And how did Arrian originate an age for Alexander at his accession without using any of his sources? Divination, perhaps? Aristobulus is the source used by Arrian whom both Arrian and Plutarch used for chronological information, therefore he is Arrian's likely source for Alexander being ~20 at his accession. The rest of your reply does not require a response, because you have not refuted anything that I've said. You have just supplied extra background information, such as showing that Timaeus was indeed a noted chronologist (although you mysteriously fail to note that he was the inventor of the Olympiad system of universal dating), or picked non-existent nits (one of the Liddell & Scott dictionary definitions of amphi is "round about") or you have explained that all the sources (e.g. Cicero) that you don't agree with must therefore have made terrible mistakes.

You have also neglected to point out to us that your highly tendentious reasoning also requires that Plutarch's story of Philip being given the news of his son's birth at the same time as the news of his victory in the Olympics is a complete fabrication. The Olympics took place in the Summer and it is impossible that news of such a victory should have taken several months to reach Philip.

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Andrew
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Re: The Length of His Reign

Post by agesilaos »

And how did Arrian originate an age for Alexander at his accession without using any of his sources? Divination, perhaps?
How about, he calculated back from the lifespan given by his source, Aristoboulos? Splenetic sarcasm is fine but do try to read what is written, eh?

You can deny the Court's right to try you as much as you like, but it's Charles I' s fate that awaits, metaphorically.

Rather than reply to the bluster and insult ('You may insult me, but I am not insulted' to quote my original, the King of Sparta), let us look at the story of the triple announcement, that might be interesting.

Philip is said to be at the siege of Potidaea, Diod.XVI 8 has him take this and give it to Olynthos in 358/7 when Kephisodotos was archon. In the Olympic year 356/7 chapter 22 v has Philip pre-empt a coalition of Thracians, Paeonians and Illyrians. I could argue that Potidaea has slipped in as an error for Paeonians but your touching belief in the sources won't allow that so it looks pretty much like the story is just that, fiction. Let's not leave the Olympics out though, the only ancient evidence for the month in which they were held is a scholiast on Plato who says the month was Mounychion which would be consistent with a possible interpretation of Aelian VH
Book 2.25

They say that the sixth of Thargelion brought much good fortune not only to Athens but to many other cities. It was for instance the date of Socrates’ birth; the Persians were defeated on that day; on it the Athenians sacrifice to the goddess Agrotera three hundred goats, acting in accordance with Miltiades’ vow. The sixth day at the beginning of the month is also said to be the date of the battle of Plataea, when the Greeks were victorious. The previous defeat of the Persians, which I have mentioned, was at Artemisium. The Hellenic victory at Mycale is also accepted as having been the gift of that day and no other, assuming that the victories of Plataea and Mycale were on the same day. Alexander of Macedon, son of Philip, is also reported to have crushed the many myriads of barbarians on the sixth of the month; that was when Alexander defeated Darius And it is believed that Alexander himself was born and departed this life on the same day.
Having Alexander born on Thargelion 6; Thargelion follows Mounychion and it is obvious that the journey from Olympia to Philip's camp in Paeonia would take longer than that from Pella. Pindar does say that the Games varied between Appollonios and Parthenios but nothing points to the correlation of these months.

Generally, it is assumed that the games were in July/August Hekatombaion in Athens or Loios in Macedon but this is to deny an explicit statement of an ancient commentator in favour of modern interpretation.

Finally, Justin has the three message story too XII 16 vi, but he adds two eagles perched on the Palace to signify Dominion over Europe and Asia, this pre-dates Plutarch's abbridgement and must, therefore be more reliable...No I do not put any credence in post factum hagiography. :evil:

Almost forgot, what is Philip doing fighting Hellenes during the Olympic Truce...and still gaining a win!
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Re: The Length of His Reign

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I have been pondering those two months of Pindar's Apollonios and Parthenios; clearly two congruent months dedicated to Apollo and a Virgin goddess, one might assume Athene but Artemis was a virgin too. The Macedonians have Artemisios (aprilish) and it is preceded by Xandikos or Xanthikos a month dedicated to the Yellow one. Now I have not been able to find any instance of Apollo being called Xanthikos but the town of Xanthos in Lycia is close to a cult centre of Leto the mother of Artemis and Apollo and stands on a river which allegedly sprang from her labour pains when delivering Apollo (Artemis' birth being painless). We are more used to Greek stories placing the birth on Delos, but there are many variants even in that tradition. Could it be that the Apollo worshipped in Macedonia was a carry-over from their alleged Phrygian origins, Lycia being either a neighbour or even province of the ancient Phrygian Empire.

Mounichion, the month for which there is some evidence for the Olympics having been held in corresponds to April/May. Further, early in their history the Olympic Games were held twice in the same year under the aegis of Argos and the Pisa, presumably each truce was respected in those less cynical times. But is it not easier to place this at the beginning of the campaigning season rather than the tag-end, similarly the Spartans were fined for breaking the Truce in
49.
At the Olympic games which were held this summer, and in which the Arcadian Androsthenes was victor the first time in the wrestling and boxing, the Lacedaemonians were excluded from the temple by the Eleans, and thus prevented from sacrificing or contending, for having refused to pay the fine specified in the Olympic law imposed upon them by the Eleans, who alleged that they had attacked Fort Phyrcus, and sent heavy infantry of theirs into Lepreum during the Olympic truce.

The amount of the fine was two thousand minae, two for each heavy-armed soldier, as the law prescribes. [2] The Lacedaemonians sent envoys, and pleaded that the imposition was unjust; saying that the truce had not yet been proclaimed at Lacedaemon when the heavy infantry were sent off. [3] But the Eleans affirmed that the armistice with them had already begun (they proclaim it first among themselves), and that the aggression of the Lacedaemonians had taken them by surprise while they were living quietly as in time of peace, and not expecting anything. [4] Upon this the Lacedaemonians submitted, that if the Eleans really believed that they had committed an aggression, it was useless after that to proclaim the truce at Lacedaemon; but they had proclaimed it notwithstanding, as believing nothing of the kind, and from that moment the Lacedaemonians had made no attack upon their country. [5] Nevertheless the Eleans adhered to what they had said, that nothing would persuade them that an aggression had not been committed; if, however, the Lacedaemonians would restore Lepreum, they would give up their own share of the money and pay that of the god for them.
This could be an early swoop at the beginning of the season, taking advantage of the time the envoys would take to reach Sparta or a badly timed last hurrah before the season is cut in two. And there is that mention of 'Summer' which would seem to close the case but, Thucydides does use the phrase 'in the spring of the following summer' ( IV 117 and VIII 61) which could mean that he saw spring merely as part of summer; in which case 'summer' could include spring also at IV 2 we find 'about the same time in spring before the corn ripened' Am I confusing my agricultural seasons but is it not otiose as the corn ripens in summer to be reaped in fall?
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Re: The Length of His Reign

Post by amyntoros »

agesilaos wrote:This could be an early swoop at the beginning of the season, taking advantage of the time the envoys would take to reach Sparta or a badly timed last hurrah before the season is cut in two. And there is that mention of 'Summer' which would seem to close the case but, Thucydides does use the phrase 'in the spring of the following summer' ( IV 117 and VIII 61) which could mean that he saw spring merely as part of summer; in which case 'summer' could include spring also at IV 2 we find 'about the same time in spring before the corn ripened' Am I confusing my agricultural seasons but is it not otiose as the corn ripens in summer to be reaped in fall?
Ah ah! Finally I can contribute something to this particular debate. :) Apparently in ancient times there could be two growing seasons, but the most abundant crops were those which were planted in the fall and harvested in the spring. There's this from Ancient Greek Agriculture: An Introduction by Signe Isager and Jens Erik Skydsgaard.
Xenophon too apparently reckons with alternating corn crops and fallowing (Oec.
16.10). The ground is broken up in the spring before grass and weeds have seeded so
that by ploughing down before the spreading of seeds they can serve as green manure.
The sun dries and makes the soil friable in the course of the summer when the earth
should be ploughed as often as possible (hoti pleistakis). At the beginning of the rainy
season in the autumn sowing with the most plentiful grain takes place in the rich soil,
less so in inferior, but there is no reference to hoeing in of the seed. In several places
Theophrastus mentions sowing in connection with a variety of cultivated plants,
most clearly De Causis Plantarum 3.20.1. Here he distinguishes between the treatment
of light and heavy types of soil, and digging or hoeing (skaptein) is mentioned as an
alternative to ploughing. Light soils are dried out too much by ploughing in summer
whereas they benefit from ploughing in winter; conversely, heavy and moist soil
benefits from summer ploughing. As far as the time of sowing is concerned,
Theophrastus refers to Hesiod’s determination of the setting of the Pleiades, and he
recommends the sowing of barley before the wheats (HP 8.6.1). It is precisely in this
context that you see the difficulties in using Theophrastus as a source in the history
of agriculture. He treats the sowing of cultivated plants together, and it is often
difficult to tell from his succinct choice of words exactly what he has in mind.
Numerous cultivated plants are mentioned but no priority or any estimate of yields
is given. The question of the possible development towards a more complicated
rotation of crops will be discussed in connection with the other cultivated plants.
Apart from winter crops, sowing in spring is also attested. Hesiod (Works ll. 485
ff.) seems inclined to regard spring crops as an emergency in case you missed winter
sowing, whereas Theophrastus mentions dimenoi and trimenoi, crops which ripen in
two or three months (cf. HP 8.4.4 and CP 4.11.4). However, the latter do not appear
to have been able to compete with the winter crop.
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Re: The Length of His Reign

Post by agesilaos »

Thanks, never been to hot on the agricultural side ( even stopped listening to 'The Archers' - but that might not mean too much outside GB- it is 'the everyday story of country folk' ).

Despite the Scholiast I think Thucydides' 'Summer' must take precedence and the specific plain statement of the month be rejected. :D
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Re: The Length of His Reign

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agesilaos wrote: Having Alexander born on Thargelion 6; Thargelion follows Mounychion and it is obvious that the journey from Olympia to Philip's camp in Paeonia would take longer than that from Pella. Pindar does say that the Games varied between Appollonios and Parthenios but nothing points to the correlation of these months.
Generally, it is assumed that the games were in July/August Hekatombaion in Athens or Loios in Macedon but this is to deny an explicit statement of an ancient commentator in favour of modern interpretation.
It's amazing what procrastination can do! All day I've been avoiding returning to a really intricate project which gave me the excuse to do some browsing. And I've found the correlation of Apollonios and Parthenios - they are months of the Elean calendar.

First there's this from Themis: A Study of the Social Origins of Greek Religion by Jane Ellen Harrison. Page 229
Google Books link here
We have seen that the Olympic festival was a moveable feast, and occurred alternately in Apollonios and Parthenios, which were probably the second and third months of the Elean year. This variation of the month is a strange and inconvenient arrangement. Moreover it is unique. The Pythia also were held at intervals of 50 and 49 months, but the incidence of the intercalated months of the octennial period was so arranged that the festival itself always fell in the same month of the Delphic year. In the same way the Panathenaea, though penteteric, always fell in Hekatombaion. There must have been some very strong reason for the troublesome variation of months in the sole case of the most important of panhellenic gatherings.
Then this from Greek and Roman Chronology: Calendars and Years in Classical Antiquity by Alan E. Samuel. Page 89. Google Books link here
The Athenian year began in classical times on the 1st day of the month of Hecatombaeon, theoretically perhaps at the first new moon after the summer solstice. The Olympic festival was held every four years in the territory of Elis and in accordance with the Elean calendar. A Hellenistic commentator on the Odes of Pindar says the the Elean civil year began with a new moon at the approximate time of the winter solstice and that the Olympic festival was observed at the time of the full moon in the eighth month, with the actual date falling sometimes in the Alexandrian month of Mesori, sometimes in the month of Thoth. The Olympic festival was therefore celebrated usually in August, but also as early as late July or as late as early September.
Interesting. :)

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Re: The Length of His Reign

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agesilaos wrote:Thanks, never been to hot on the agricultural side ( even stopped listening to 'The Archers' - but that might not mean too much outside GB- it is 'the everyday story of country folk' ).
Agesilaos, I think it's been a long time since The Archers featured anything that was of more than passing reference to agriculture ... :D

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Re: The Length of His Reign

Post by agesilaos »

Thanks for the info Amyntoros, if the Olympics were held on a full moon, of course they cannot have been held before the 14th of any lunar month (full moon occuring 14-15 days after the new moon which marks the beginning of the lunar month at Athens), making 6th Hekatombaion an unlikely date. The whole synchronism needs to be abandoned as later fiction and cease being used to date the other events it mentions.

Yes, Marcus the most agricultural things these days are Jo Grundy's poems :P
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Re: The Length of His Reign

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agesilaos wrote:Yes, Marcus the most agricultural things these days are Jo Grundy's poems :P
Now totally off-topic, but I feel the need to make a DISCLAIMER: I am not, and never have been, a listener to The Archers. However, there have been many occasions when it is too much trouble to turn off or re-tune the radio, and so I have heard a lot of episodes (and, indeed, many more than I care to admit).

Why is it that I suddenly feel a lot of empathy with the Hollywood Ten? :D

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agesilaos
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Re: The Length of His Reign

Post by agesilaos »

Sounds much like the 'I was cleaning in the nude and just happened to trip onto the milk bottle' defence. :oops:

Back to the topic, Samuel's quoting the scholiast on Pindar is very helpful; in Alexander's day the months would have been October-Mesore and November - Thoth, had they existed then! But that is no real objection as Josephos dates biblical 'events' using Macedonian months (naturally what he is actually doing is giving the Macedonian month which corresponds to the Jewish month, but the effect is to have Moses using a calendar yet to be invented). It would seem, then that the scholiast is using the equation of his own era.

Now, at the end of the Hellenistic era and the commencement of the Roman Augustus set the date of 1st Thoth as August 29 in ordinary years and 30 in leap ones (ie every fourth year after 22BC) Mesore began 35 days earlier normally and 36 in leap years, the Egyptians adding epagominal days at the end of their year rather than inter-calating a whole month every so often. But they added only five days, which were especially unlucky and it took the might of Rome to impose good chronology. Ptolemy III had tried and failed.This meant that their dates slipped a day every four years, meaning that in the third century BC Mesore was mainly September and Thoth October, in the Second Sept/August and October/september, and in the first August and September, which realationship was set. Further confirmation that the triple victory sychronism must fail if 6th Hekatombaion is considered correct. Aristoboulos' implied dating would still allow for synchronism with the Olympic victory we know from numismatic evidence to be fact in itself, other events of the year may have accreted to a simpler story. Maybe Hekatombaion should be emended to Boedromion and the equation with Lous be dropped as the error being one in the MS Plutarch worked from and the reference to Lous his own gloss. There is a precident in the speeches of Demosthenes where in 'De Corona 95' a letter from Philip equates Boedromion with Lous; carelessly I have forgotten where i read an expert analysis of the possibilities the upshot of which was that Lous and Boedromion could not ever have coincided (and the events don't fit the time scale either) so that Boedromion must be a mistake for Hekatombaion.

Found reference Fasti Hellenici: the civil and literary chronology of Greece : ...: Volume 3 - Page 619 Henry Fynes Clinton on googlebooks :D
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Taphoi
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Re: The Length of His Reign

Post by Taphoi »

amyntoros wrote:...Then this from Greek and Roman Chronology: Calendars and Years in Classical Antiquity by Alan E. Samuel. Page 189. Google Books link here
The Athenian year began in classical times on the 1st day of the month of Hecatombaeon, theoretically perhaps at the first new moon after the summer solstice. The Olympic festival was held every four years in the territory of Elis and in accordance with the Elean calendar. A Hellenistic commentator on the Odes of Pindar says the the Elean civil year began with a new moon at the approximate time of the winter solstice and that the Olympic festival was observed at the time of the full moon in the eighth month, with the actual date falling sometimes in the Alexandrian month of Mesori, sometimes in the month of Thoth. The Olympic festival was therefore celebrated usually in August, but also as early as late July or as late as early September.
Interesting. :)
If the scholiast on Pindar is correct, then the nearest New Moon to the Winter Solstice of ~26th December (Julian) in 357BC took place on about 19th December and the Full Moon of the Olympics was on 30th July 356BC (the date of a tabulated Lunar eclipse). Since Samuel also states "we are probably safe in accepting the evidence that the festival culminated with the full moon", Philip's horse may have won the race a week or two earlier (i.e. very close to Alexander's birth on 20th July). Philip probably got news of his Olympic victory by galley, but the news of Alexander's birth may have travelled more slowly overland. There is anyway a close correspondence in the dates and Plutarch's date for Alexander's birth is further vindicated. Furthermore Plutarch knew when the Olympic Games were held and would have been aware if his Olympic victory story was inconsistent with his date for Alexander's birth - obviously it was not, but it is highly inconsistent with Alexander's birthday having been in the Autumn. The fact that the story of the coincidence of the three pieces of news is in both Justin and Plutarch strongly suggests that it came from an early source (most likely Cleitarchus). It would have been difficult for a contemporaneous source to invent such a public event, because many people still living would have known it for a lie. The only misrepresentation in this matter is by Arrian, who even contradicts himself by making Alexander approximately twenty at his accession at the beginning of his work and exactly twenty at his accession in his final pages.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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