The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

[Zebedee]

Nevermind. Wondered why they looked familiar. Pics of Pydna monument are pics of Pydna monument.

In recompense for my brain booboo, a contested view but Hatzopoulos has suggested this gentleman named Nikanor is carrying an aspis which appears above his left shoulder. Dated to c.300 BC.



Hatzopoulos and Juhel, Four Hellenistic Funerary Stelae from Gephyra, Macedonia, AJA 113, 2009

[agesilaos]

Nope, just his cloak behind and his left arm ahead; you can make out the pteruges. Nor did cavalry fight with the hoplite shield (there are depictions of men on horses with them but they are mounted hoplites travelling to the action) the shield would be too heavy for mounted use and liable to beat the horse to a pulp IMHO

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These are similar helmets dated to 2nd century BC, but not stated why.

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The main point of interest here is the snake!

[Zebedee]

Nope, just his cloak behind and his left arm ahead; you can make out the pteruges. Nor did cavalry fight with the hoplite shield (there are depictions of men on horses with them but they are mounted hoplites travelling to the action) the shield would be too heavy for mounted use and liable to beat the horse to a pulp IMHO

Goodness knows whether there is an edge of a shield going from the man's neck to the horse's. I can't see a thing on such pictures, but H. is of some repute on such matters even when flying odd kites. He reckons there's later examples of cavalry with the fun shields still I wonder whether those are the ones you discount there too.

Love the snake. No egg there is there?

[hiphys]

I think the main point of interest are the boots, very up-to date: it seems they were made in our year 2016!

[agesilaos]

There are certainly later depictions such as this, now lost plaque from Pergamon

Battle of Magnesia?

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Don't get me wrong, I have much respect for Hatzoupoulos, not least because he ' shows all his workings' and thus saves any one who takes a different view a great deal of work hunting down the raw data For my money he extrapolates the ordered Antigonid Kingdom back onto the Argaead a tad too much, but such things are frequently just down to interpretation due to the state of the evidence. Miltiades has probably (no, certainly) seen the original but, like you the photo is not clear for a definite pronouncement.

The ones i am discounting are earlier vase paintings, which are hoplite shields nonetheless, will try to find an example.

Was anything said about the coin finds?

[Taphoi]

A statue of Alexander the Great from Alexandria, where he was remembered as the Son of the Serpent.

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[Zebedee]

@agesailaos :
I wonder whether there's a 'stylistic' element to some of the portrayals rather than a strict guide to military equipment. It was just a passing thought really given the paucity of evidence for cavalry with shields of any sort. Have the article cited on pdf if it's of interest, and yes he has seen himself, but it's obviously nothing more than his view of one example.

I'm wondering whether the chap from Amphipolis is actually a cavalryman - that lovely hat is making me think of ones in painted tombs.

Wish H. would get someone to translate into English once in a while. My French is rusty as anything these days and it makes my head hurt to wade through to what I'm looking for.

[Zebedee]

Some press coverage, with a few extra bits to what Gepd summarised. Can't see anything about coins though.

http://www.tovima.gr/culture/article/?aid=782009

[agesilaos]

Your headless statue looks more likely to be Orpheus to me, what makes you think Alexander and whence do you get 'the son of the serpent'? Daniel Ogden uses it as a chapter title but never seen it in the ancient literature. Even if the Kasta relief was intended as Alexander, he cannot have 3rd C accoutrements before the third century.

[system1988]

Here is the link to the CNN Greece coverage, in Greek I am afraid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hnwdjt8tS0

Professor Antonio Corso attempts to speak Greek , but rather causes confusion. Very interesting the head of Hephaestion ? in Louvre

[Zebedee]

A statue of Alexander the Great from Alexandria, where he was remembered as the Son of the Serpent.

I'd be tempted to make the Ladon and Heracles connection but for the difficulty in making out whether the gentleman is wearing a lionskin. (Not being facetious, did spend time trying to check if that was under his helmet!)

But...

Cult of the Thracian Horseman is kind of where I'm more inclined to look.

This is later according to the museum it's in, and I've just stolen from wiki because I'm lazy tonight, but it's nowhere near unique.



So I have lots of questions bubbling away about origins of cults and things like that.

[Taphoi]

Your headless statue looks more likely to be Orpheus to me, what makes you think Alexander and whence do you get 'the son of the serpent'? Daniel Ogden uses it as a chapter title but never seen it in the ancient literature. Even if the Kasta relief was intended as Alexander, he cannot have 3rd C accoutrements before the third century.

The matter is not controversial. There is a whole class of these Alexander statuettes from Alexandria, including the one you might know from the British Museum (below). Obviously, this is yet another strong connection with Olympias since it potentially alludes to the story about Zeus-Ammon visiting her to father Alexander in the guise of one of her pet snakes.
Best wishes,
Andrew

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[Zebedee]

Snakes in trees =/= snakes bedding Olympias.

Grave stele, 'Heros equitans', Athens Museum



Hellenistic relief (3rd or 2nd BCE), Pergamon, Istanbul museum. (NB: yes I am suggesting the gentleman from Amphipolis may be the groom/servant of a (lost) hero.)

[Zebedee]

Well not alone in seeing it.

More pics of presentation here: http://www.thousandnews.gr/index.php/ep ... n-amfipoli



Wonder what date they give for that. All seems like the site was undergoing refurbishments long after the initial cremation was interred?


edit: just on the idea of this being a procession type affair. Sveshtari tomb, which was mentioned on this thread in relation to other similarities, has the following little scene of the 'hero'/king(?) being trailed by two servants carrying his weapons and shield.

[gepd]

Hi all,

I am waiting for recordings of the presentations for accurate translations, but here are some additional info or clarifications. Most important is that there was a long discussion with the attendees, lots of criticism and answers on that, that is what may be the most interesting part.

a) Carbon dating was based on burned wood found exactly above the chambers, so the excavators assume it dates the construction of the chambers. It is not yet clarified from the reports I read if that wooden pieces where from an extended layer of burn (e.g. like the one found above the Philip tomb at Vergina) or just a small concentration of burned material that may have been transported there by chance.

b) The parts of the sealing walls that come from the third chamber floor were having holdings/pegs for supporting sculptures, which is one the reasons they assume the sculpture with the snake may have been part of the tomb, although it was found ~100 m away from Kastas.

c) There are 80 pieces of the assumed lion base (from previous interviews or statements they said they found some those interred in the late Roman walls of Amphipolis), from what I understood they only presented few of the biggest ones. They were asked for that, Lefantzis just replied something along the lines that not everything could fit in the 10 min presetation.

d) It is assumed that the 60+ year old woman skeleton was interred before 300 BC in the cist tomb, that had other uses till then earth fill was used to cover the tomb up to the floor of the third chamber.

e) Obviously, the association of the figure in the frieze with AtG has received lots of criticism.

f) In the Q&A session Lefantzis refuted some claims that the peribolos structure is 2nd century BC, making also references to the clumps that survive in excellent states and may at least be used to make clear separations between these two periods

g) They refuted claims that the tree type or horses are typical 2nd century BC, giving references to the tomb of Philip and others. Many comparisons were done with altar(?) of Ephesus (not sure if report on that is accurate)