comments about the pink dollar

[peter]

i have had several responses to some of the comments i made about the coming film pandering to the pink dollar. these comments were sent to me via the forum by someone using the forum and are not my personal views. this person seems to think that alexander should not be portrayed as a lover of young men! he should be 100% hetero. i'm simply trying to point out that during the time of alexander there was no category of sexuality. the spartans, greeks and macedonians had a culture of all male clubs and it wasn't frowned upon for men to form romantic attachments with each other. would a film maker portray the emperor nero as a christian (played by di caprio) if it would make for better box office? i dont think so. on another subject i also read somewhere that stone is supposed to show that alexander would know his son? is this the imaginary one that he was said to have by barsine? or is stone putting in his own bit of tosh to test our knowlage of history? well done to the person who spotted the fact alexander didn't live to see his son! i have just seen the dvd of "phone booth" colin farrel has the looks and ability to do the part justice, stones film may turn out to be a classic. by the way does anyone know about george clooney's new film "the gates of fire"? from steven pressfield's novel. another bit of historical tosh! the spartans are portrayed like modern day squaddies (soldiers) who make homophobic comments etc. funny that when actually they lived in all male clubs even after marriage, had a boyfriend, and the wife had to have her head shaved and dressed like a boy in order to make them appealing to the groom up to several years into the marriage.

[jan]

Peter,For your information, all sources in history are as much a matter of faith and trust in the historian as anything else. Alexander did not live to see his child by Roxanne, but he did know his son who is named Hercules for he named the child himself.Hercules and Barsine left Alexander to live in Persia after Alexaner entered Sogdiana and married Roxanne.Those are just the facts...

[marcus]

Actually, Jan, the fact that Barsine and Herakles went to live in Persia after Alexander entered Sogdiana and married Roxane is *not* fact, but supposition. The *fact* is that we don't know exactly where Barsine went, and when. It is reasonable to suppose that it happened as you say, because Herakles is supposed to have been born in around 327, which means that Alexander must have had Barsine with him at least 9 months prior to that... but we can only theorise about what actually happened.All the bestMarcus

[beausefaless]

How do you know what this person thinks? I suggest you do not try for you might have a brain aneurism. All this person said was and I quote,
"I am not aware of any evidence to suggest that Caesar or Mark Antony were gay or homosexual or whatever. As far as Oliver hoping for Pink Dollars, I don't know about that. I think he will be heavily working the conspiracy theories though".
"If there is evidence to suggest that Caesar or Mark Antony were gay please share. Not that there is anything wrong with that".
I totally agree, where is your source? Stop playing doge ball !

[marcus]

Peter,"...the wife had to have her head shaved and dressed like a boy in order to make them appealing to the groom up to several years into the marriage."Please tell me where you got this piece of information from. I don't remember *ever* hearing or reading about this - and, for what it's worth, I think it's rubbish.Apparently Clooney is making a film of "Gates of Fire", although I haven't heard anything about when it's due out, or whether it's even in production.But I'm looking forward to it immensely!All the bestMarcus

[beausefaless]

I heard that Alexander did see Roxanne give birth to his and her first son but the child died shortly after. If I remember correctly Michael Woods mentioned this in his journey but I could be wrong.

[Tre]

Actually, Gates of Fire was a pretty good book, although Pressfield dodged the whole men loving men issue throughout the book. Despite the comments on this forum, publishers would prefer not to to have books with men loving men for the general populace. It's too controversial. Believe me, Renault got to write the Persian Boy and it was published on her reputation as a great writer, not because the publisher was necessarily pleased with the contents. However, Pressfield's very next book is on Alexander, but the quality of Pressfield's work since Gates of Fire has not been particularly good, and he has trouble conveying complex characters. That he is attempting to do it from Alexander's point of view is even more unplatable, because I am of the opinion to write from Alexander's point of view would require an equally complex and intelligent personality. Not that this hasn't been attempted before, but the result was not a classic. Then again, people do pay to read Harlequin Romances don't they...Alas, I don't think Alexander's gonna get his Homer from this one either.

[karen]

I hope no one minds that I step in and clarify something here. The original "pink dollar" comment was made by Karl Soundy, in a thread entitled "bogoas" (sic) that has now dropped off the page -- second post from the top of the thread. He said that Oliver Stone was making his movie "with a nod to the Pink Dollar."If I understand rightly, Peter was protesting this, not echoing it.Now I wonder if someone would explain to me when someone makes a movie about a hetero pair, it's a "love story" or a "celebration of passion" or some such positive thing, while when someone makes a movie about a same-sex pair, it's "pandering to the gay market," or "pushing a gay agenda," or otherwise negatively ascribed.I am in a happy 18-year same-sex relationship myself, and my only agenda re sexual orientation is to work for the day in which no one will be despised, marginalized, harassed, beaten, killed, or otherwise made to suffer for theirs, whatever it is.Love & peace,
Karen

[S]

I want to acknowledge you both for your comments (and yes, I am aware they might be slightly off-target, but it seems some things need saying repeatedly).
Tre, because you are always astute and your use of, and interpretation of, the extant sources is commendable and reliable. And
Karen, for your comments regarding the double standard present in so much today. You might take some hits because of this, but "bravo".
My salute, Companions!!
Regards,
Sikander (who better stop now before I veer off topic even further!)

[davej]

Thanks for the support it was me. And I am still awaiting some convincing evidence. More power to you Karen by the way. I support same sex relationships whole heartly even though I am married to a women and have two kids. I went to a all boys school and emerge decidedly homophobic. A couple of years with my wife's help I have swung the other way.But lets not lose focus, history is about evidence, where is the evidence?

[karen]

Hi Dave et al:I had a friend who went to an all-boys' school, so I know indirectly what you're talking about... 'Nuff said. Glad you recovered!Anyway, I don't know about Antony and Caesar, but with Alexander, here's some evidence that springs to mind: Curtius says right out that Alexander had sex with Bagoas, 6.5.23 . Now I can't recall what source has this next one, and don't have it on hand, but one of them had something about Alexander comparing Hephaistion with someone else and finding him 'less effeminate,' which suggests a sexual type of regard. Alexander certainly raised Hephaistion to higher military ranks than his ability seemed to rate, which bespeaks a wish to honour him and perhaps the blindness of love (though Alexander was never so blind as not to assign Hephaistion an excellent co-commander).But I think the best evidence for what Alexander felt for Hephaistion, because all sources agree on it, was how he reacted to his death. I think while Hephaistion was alive they had pretended to be less close than they were, in order to offset the envy of other high-ranking men towards Hephaistion -- but once Hephaistion was dead that didn't matter, and so Alexander showed his true feelings in full. A person doesn't get incapacitated with grief like that for a friend, even a best friend... it's more like what you see when he loses a spouse, his "other half." That doesn't prove there was sex between them, of course, but I think it definitely proves that there was love, and intense love.Sexual orientation, as the famous Kinsey report demonstrated, is not either/or, but a continuum, with bisexuals in the middle; thus the fact that Alexander fathered children does not disprove that he had sex with men.I hope this all hasn't been said *too* many times before on this forum, or else it benefits someone who is new...Love & peace,
Karen

[gahauser]

Sikander to the rescue! Where've you been?
Also, well done Karen. And I can attest first hand to the publishing phobia against same sex erotic scenes. It was an uphill battle with mine.
Why is it even an issue? Top that to the reaction I am getting from people who read it. I try to explain they cannot compare our present day, (sadly ignorant) mores with the ones on ancient history. Yet, I have to say this again and again. I've always prefered sex to violence, but I guess I am not with the majority of movie watchers.
Cheers.
GA Hauser
IN THE SHADOW OF ALEXANDER
http://www.authorga.com

[marcus]

Hi Tre,I agree about Pressfield - I thought "Gates of Fire" was superb, and I thought "Tides of War" was a complete turkey. I did finish it, but wished I hadn't bothered.I haven't read "Last of the Amazons" yet, but as you think it's better than "Tides..." I will at least bother to do so.I didn't know he's now doing an Alexander book. I agree with you completely - he should *not* try to write from A's p.o.v. 'cos he isn't good enough to do it!All the bestMArcus

[S]

Greetings,
I have been and am still incredibly busy; but *will* be getting to my email soon .. I keep hoping, anyway!!
One of the areas I present on is the sexual continuum and human sexual dynamics... and it is fascinating to me how some people, especially in the fundamentalist religious cultures, remain woefully ignorant of the natural diversity of sexual mores found around the globe even today- we don't need to look to the ancient world to find a plethora of acceptable sexual behaviours and expected mores! Worse than ignorance is the seeming "necessity" to make everyone conform to a narrow- and not always natural- view of what constitutes "normal" sexual behaviour... Both in humans and our cousins the animals, diversity *is* the norm!
Well, back to work! As I said, I could go quite off topic here, and though some of the tales would be amusing, they would not be appropriate to a site dealing with ancient history
Regards,
Sikander

[jan]

Yes, Andrew, I just read that also. It is under the Jhelum River. So that means that Alexander fathered three children as he also seems to have made Roxanne pregnant shortly after the death of Hephaestion.In the book by Weigall, Arthur quotes Plutarch as his source for the knowledge about Heracles. He seems to think that Plutarch used Aristobulus, and thus Arthur believes Plutarch rather than Tarn who tried to dispute the Heracles story.I believe that Weigall is a very well considered and thoughtful historian and biographer.Jan