What did GÇ£being GÇÿGreekGÇÖGÇ¥ mean in Ancient GÇ£GreeceGÇ

[Tre]

While these arguments tend to go from bizarre to amusing and back again, there are two salient points people always fail to mention when discussing were the Macedonians Greek?1. History was written by Athenians - therefore anything said about whether the Macedonians were Greek or not should be taken with a large grain of salt. Athenians didn't like Macedonians and found it useful to deny them membership in "The Club" and therefore Barbarians.2. If you asked Alexander if he was Greek, his response would have been "Absolutely," and he would have probably added that he was more Greek than any of those so-called Greeks from the South who lived soft and not like in the old the traditional ways as in the Iliad, which all Macedonians lived by. Besides, he was a descendent of Herakles and Akilleus by matter of fact He couldn't have cared less about modern politics, DNA or genetic studies. It's what he thought and what the Macedonians thought that was important to them. They may not have been of the same blood as Athenians, Spartans, etc. and they had differing religious and cultural beliefs, but in their hearts they were no less Greek.Regards,Tre

[smittysmitty]

Wow!!!!Some heavy duty statements there Tre!I normaly would sit out on this issue of ethnicity amongst the Makedones and Hellenes, but to suggest, or rather make a 'as a matter of fact' remark like the Makedones considered themselves as Greeks simply isn't so! I don't know what books you use for your sources of information,but I have never come accross anything of the kind. How can you say that?I'm not saying they were not Hellenes,but to make such comments that they considered themselves as such, well, I'm totaly at aloss for words.
I understand how some people become emotionaly involved with this issue due to it's modern day implications, but to this day,that I am aware, historically there is nothing to support what you say as a fact!Sorry Tre! you dropped a couple of notches with me today!Totally horrified!
Cheers!

[Tre]

As a rule, I don't particulary care how I'm rated one way or the other, and I have no particular desire to please either side of the debate as you suggest. What do you think they considered themselves? The Argead house always considered themselves to be Greek and that is certainly backed up historically let alone by whom they claimed descent from.I am more than well versed in the Greeks vs. Macedonian debate, but it simply exists only for moderns. It is what the Macedonians thought about themselves that mattered and I see no evidence that they thought themselves anything but Greek. Regards,Tre

[beausefaless]

I totally agree and I must admit the Greek/Macedonian persuasion have been one of the better debates in this forum, Marcus and co. are totally wrong with this issue!

[JMC]

Guys, I will be the simple minded, ignroant, dumb American here and ask: Did any of you hear the question of the Macedonians' Greekness or non-Greekness for that matter, arrise before the breakup of former Yugoslavia, and the formation of present-day FYROM?

[beausefaless]

probably not, I was referring to #4 and I will go on to say ancient Greeks are descendents of ancient Macedonians.

[alejandro]

Hi AlexThank you for your message.
Just two comments/questions:
You wrote:
"Herodotus defines a nation as: omaimon, omoglosson, omothriskon, omotropon
Meaning: of the same blood, same tongue, same religion, same customs."
This is a very interesting point. Reading your list, I realized I could classify these elements into two broad classes: nature (blood) and nurture (tongue, religion, customs plus education, that you mention below). The question is, then: in order to be Greek, do you need all of them? Someone born of Persian parents, but reared in Greece, educated in a Greek school, who speaks Greek and worships Greek gods, would be considered Greek? Or the lack of one element (in this case, blood) is sufficient to be considered non-Greek?Your wrote
"From the Macedonians come the Dorians, Thessalians etc. (Not the other way around-The Dorians were not some tribe that came from the North and settled) "
Could you please provide some evidence about this? I remember that in secondary school I was taught exactly that: Dorians come from the North and invaded Attika and, being a less developed society, that period of Dorian preeminence was called the Dark Age in Greek history.
Thank you
Best wishes
Alejandro

[alejandro]

Hi TreVery interesting point. I would summarize the question as: should we use an GÇ£objectiveGÇ¥ or GÇ£subjectiveGÇ¥ definition of GÇ£GreeknessGÇ¥?
I must admit that I prefer something based on more GÇ£tangibleGÇ¥ factors like genetics or religion, but your perspective is very interesting indeed.
The only drawback I find to it, is that it can lead to disagreements and, eventually, to indefiniteness: Athenians could have thought that Macedonians were not Greek, while Macedonians though they were. Who is in this case? Moreover, you could have different answers even within the same region: some Macedonians considering themselves Greeks, others not; some Athenians may have considered Macedonians Greeks, while others regarded them as barbarians.
In any case, I truly appreciate your refreshing view on this topic.
Best wishesAlejandro

[Perseus]

Alejandro,Those are valid questions you have there.Regarding who would be considered Greek and non-Greek at those times, we can safely assume that lack of one of those things I listed would be enough to cause controversy. Remember, Ancient Greeks were purists and they had very strong bonds with their ancestors. They had the geneological tree all mapped out by mythology and wouldn-¦t tolerate someone claiming he is a descendant of Herakles or Achilles if they believed he was not. The farther you went from the Greek centers of Macedonia, Thessalia, Attica, The Pelloponese and Ionia, the less Greek they would consider the inhabitants. Even if it was them (Greeks) that settled those other places in the first place!Such elitist views are expressed very clearly by Aristotle who viewed even a slight accent to Greek as a fault. Now, philosophically, subjectively and in concurrence with a lot of people at that time, (but definately not the majority) I-¦d tell you that Hellenism is beyond race and religion. However, language is an undevidied characteristic IMO. So are customs.If we want an objective stance on what is Greek or not in a person, tribe, or ethnic group we-¦d start with anthropological data, (does he look like the people that lived here), language (does he speak the same language and has he spoken it uninterrupted during the time ellapsed?), culture (does he follow the same habits, does he have key charactersitcs of his supposed ancestor-¦s character?), religion (does he worship the same gods, is his world view the same)...All these make up an ethnos.
I will get into the different Greek races and the Dorians shortly! Hope this helps

[panos]

Hi companionsI have been following this interesting thread and what I realised is that our point of view is influenced by modern times. "Greekness", "Greek" are terms introduced in more modern times. There were no passports or nationalities like today at the time we are investigating. There were only city-states and a more global sense of Hellenism. The "prerequisites" for beeing Hellen were same language, same genetic origin and same religion (Omaimon, omoglosson kai omothriskon).Macedonians is almost certain that they were using the same language - in all the conquests and especially in Egypt, appart from the local language Greek was the official language. Even Dr Vasko in a discussion we previously had, gave a Greek root to the name "Alexander" (see Comment on Enlightement attempt by Panos on Tuesday, 16th September 2003 and relevant posts).Concerning the religion there is no doubt - Alexander considered himself son of Zeus, Phillip II wanted to be the 13th god in the Pantheon, Alexander built 12 shrines (1 for each god) in the borders with India ecc. About same blood (omaimon) the Argeads claimed provenance from the area of Argos (todays Peloponese). Exept the propaganda written by the Athenians, "Macedonians" participated in Olympic games, had access to the Oracle of Delphi that were reserved to Hellenes. Unfortunatelly there are no blood samples from the time to compare them, although some contemporary studies try to give an exotic origin to Greeks.Just some thoughts
Regards
Panos

[smittysmitty]

Tre ,Firstly allow me to apologize for my over reaction to your post; it was wrong of me to do so and I am sorry. You, as we all, are entitled to our opinions.Secondly, I would like to affirm I have no political agenda and participate in the subject matter on a strictly academic level. I would be equally pleased to one day discover that the Makedones were Greeks or if they were not.However on the issue of ethnicity, or rather how the Makedones perceived themselves you present us with a 'more Greek than Greek' interpretation which I find hard to swalllow. The portrayal of Macedon as a Homeric landscape is not new, and stems from contemporaries attempting to paint a picture of the Makedones proper. These very same contemporary writers (turn of the century onwards) are the first to acknowledge the limited information at hand. That the information is scant, need no further qualification to anyone that is familiar with the sources. I have purposely omitted names of authors as I wish not to enter into a 'he says this,she says that' discussion.On your point, that the history is written by Athenians and should be taken with a grain of salt, I find agreeable to my mind, that the Makedones 'lived by the traditional ways as in the Iliad', I do not. Assuming that you are correct, were the Athenians not aware of the supposed 'traditional ways'; was it not obvious to them- this Homeric connection- as it is to you? Was part of their proud cultural heriatge so adverse that they considered it barbaric! Throughout the Hellenistic literary age we hear nothing but praise for those Homeric days- yet it existed in their backyard! Surely if it were the case, not only would they have attained Club Membership, they would have been granted V.I.P status. Astonishingly, most contemporary writers prepared to committ to the ethnicity debate of the Makedones, present perhaps a paragraph, or maybe a page or two on why they believe it to be the case, then the remainder of their test is dedictaed to showing us how they were different.
You also suggest the Makedones were not of the same blood,and displayed religious and cultuaral differences yet stand committes to your ethnicity comment.Let me propose theis to you. If you asked Alexander if he were a Greek, his response would have been "Absolutely"!- would be a fair response if he were being asked by a Greek. Had he been asked by a Thracian , was he a Thracian, or by an Illyrian, was he an Illyrian, I

[smittysmitty]

Let me propose this to you. If you asked Alexander if he were a Greek, his response would be "Absolutely"!- would be a fair response if he were being asked by a Greek. Had he been asked by a Thracian, was he a Thracian, or an Illyrian, was he an Illyrian, I have no doubt he would have responded "Absolutely"! Why wouldn't he! And if the Argeads practice of polygamy was apparent from its ancestral foundations, I would suspect there also existed some form of god/hero worship from a Thraco/Illyrian origin.Unfortunately, as you stated earlier, the history is written by the Athenians, so we may never know what really was.In any event, I hope I have been forgiven for my earlier post.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers!

[Tre]

Hello Miguel:Interesting post, but I stand by everything I said and I can back it up academically.However, I think you missed the whole point of my post if you thought that Alexander would ever refer to himself as Illyrian or Thracian depending on who asked. That would never have happened - an Argead was an Argead - it didn't matter where his mother came from and he would never jeopardize his position as a direct heir and King by calling himself anything else. Regards,Tre

[Tre]

My sincerest apologies - I was replying to his post and messed up. Gotta stop working those late hours

[stavros]

then you will come to the conclusion that Alexander was Greek and not Mexican. please, this issue is pathetic.