Prelude to Chaeronea

[Nicator]

Hello all,I'm having trouble finding information on what caused Philip to attack, and why Thebes and Athens decided to ally themselves against him at this time. Any help would be appreciated.Your Nick

[beausefaless]

During The Third Sacred War, Philip acquired colonies in Thrace and Chalcidice through a series of conquest and semi-peace agreements with Athens. The next several years saw Philip extending his kingdom to the west with the subjugation of Epirus, Thessaly and Illyria. In the north he gained control of the northern tribes, the Scythians, and the rest of the colonies in Thrace then Philip was free to focus his efforts towards southern Greece. One group of Athenians, led by Demosthenes, had opposed all Macedonian alliances and continuously tried to persuade the Athenian people to rise against Philip. Others led by Iscocrates, supported Philip's idea that all Greeks should unite and wage war against Persia, eventually Demosthenes won over most of the people and polotiticians and Thebes followed, bad move, Iscocrates was right all along! Iscocrates thought Philip was the best to lead all the Geeks against Persia. Philip held out for a peaceful resolution (Hatzopoulos108) at the same time Philip awaited for more troops and reinforcements before he began his campaign and Philip needed to gain control over southern Greece before he could make his move against Persia.

[smittysmitty]

Hi Nicator,
very simply, Philip had annexed most of Thessaly and Thrace to Macedon, and in so doing had taken control of what interests the Athenians had in those areas. The loss of Amphipolis, Pydna, Methone,Olynthus and Byzantium were major blows for the Athenians, furthermore, with the seizing of the grain fleets in Byzantium and controling the routes, Athens's very life line was threatened.I guess they had no choice but to go to war, or be under Phils control.The Thebans on the other hand ( remember they were enemies of Athens a little earlier during the Social War ) felt their power in central Greece was diminishing at a rapid rate. Phils attack on the Locrians, and the expulsion of a Macedonian garrison from Thermopylae were the final straw for both parties.In reality, both cities had lost power, control as well as prestige due to Phils politicing and warfare. Neither city was strong enough to take him out, the Athenians felt it was as good a time as any to try and put an end to his antics. They decided to side with the Thebans, met at Chaeronea and the rest is history!
Cheers!

[beausefaless]

The grain issue was a poor excuse the thought of Macedonia controlling southern Greece was more than the Athenian politicians could bare especially by barbarians. By having southern Greece as allies Philip would be able to concentrate on Persia as he tried to negotiate through Iscorates but because of Athenian political greed the politicians lobbied the Athenian people through Demosthenes. Philip had no intention of destroying Athens it's no different from modern day politics large corporations swallowing up small ones and they win and the consumers lose by higher prices so what happened, lots of Athenian and Theban solders died for greedy politicians, sound familiar?

[smittysmitty]

Hi Andrew,
Im not sure what you mean that the seizing of the grain fleets an routes was a 'poor excuse', if it implies that it meant very little to the Athenians, then I can't agree with you.You (perhaps Hatsopolous) tend to overplay the significance of Isocrates, at this junction of time.you state, 'Others led by Isocrates, supported Philips idea that all Greeks should unite and wage war against Persia.'I don't think Phil at this stage or for that matter ever, considered uniting the Greeks to wage war against Persia, this was strictly Isorates thoughts.you also state'Philip would be able to concentrate on Persia as he tried to negotiate through Isocrates.'To my knowledge, I may be wrong, I don't think Philip negotiated anything at all with Isocrates, rather he had simply received a number of letters from him outlining his thoughts and ideals.I may add, this Pan-Hellenic concept would have suited Phil perfectly, but in no way was it ever
thought to be an ideal that Phil came up with.
cheers!

[Nicator]

Thanks guys! It never fails, by the time I finally break down and post a question, I find it in some book. In this case, Fuller pg. 34 provides a pretty decent account. Now I have to finish writing it in verse, and can move on to brighter pastures. It's always a difficult question, as to how much background to put in, and how much to leave out. Yours, Nicator

[beausefaless]

What! No debate on Demosthenes? I'm honored or did you just forget.

[Nicator]

Not sure what to debate? It seemed accurate enough to me. I also found decidedly more info on this issue in Bosworth. As much as I berate him, I have to admit, his book is quite an excellent source. You should be honored dammit! You're smart and as wily as they come when it comes to ATG, so feel good about that :)later Nicator