What languages did Alexander speak?

[marcus]

My word, Pela. Where do you find the time to type out these long lists of words?I haven't yet quite worked out what you're trying to prove, either.All the bestMarcus

[smittysmitty]

Hi Susan,have you heard anything at all from your friend regarding the finds? I can't get any info at all

[THE LIGHT 7000]

...
Marcus,
I am positive that such a "long list" is very very short, and is in most, if not in almost every Makedonian from Makedonia.......Again, what is your goal with asking the childish question- What is your goal,- and what is your goal if not to find out what, and who was/is realy Aleksandar from Makedonia?...! So if you do not want to find a truth, and if you are boaring, why you are here still and asking all this questions, for what reason... Do you want to initiate- de ja vu "snow ball effect"... Well my dear litle friend, this time it won't work, most of the people here are fed enough with some lessons about "Greeks" who are paying lots of maney to publish some kind of the book by order, it is time you and many like you to work for your daily bread honestly, so look for truth ... capish...The Light 7000

[jona]

"GÇ£BilingualismGÇ¥ is an interesting hypothesis. I would appreciate if you could be more precise: do you mean that ALL Macedonians (or at least the majority of them) spoke both languages?"As I understood it, there were two languages in the entire - so like Belgium and Switzerland, there was a Greek and Macedonian speaking half, and an elite that knew how to express itself in both languages.We may assume, perhaps, that speaking Greek was more high-brow, just like the elite of 18th century Prussia adopted French. The same happened in the Roman empire; there is evidence that first, the leaders of a subject tribe (e.g., the Iberians - they have been studied) accepted the new language, and that every social climber adopted Latin, followed by lower social strata.It might be interesting to study Macedonian personal names; is there a progress of Greek names after, say, 400? I don't know. (This progress of Greek names is a normal pattern in Judaea and Egypt.)Jona

[susan]

No, I haven't heard anything - and I don't think that anything has been published.Susan

[tino]

"Plutarch mentions, in his description of the death of Clitus, confusion when an excited and drunk Alexander gives an order in Macedonian. The implication is that he spoke Macedonian and that orders were usually given in Greek."The implication is equally that he reverted to the standard Macedonian dialect of Greek as opposed to Attic. "As I understand from the late professor Ruijgh, linguists are slowly developing a consensus on the subject of Macedonian languages that explains the inconsistencies that have made this such a nasty puzzle. It was a mistake to assume that the Macedonians spoke only one language. Like Belgians and Swiss, they were bilingual."Yet there is no hard evidence for any seperate Macedonian 'language'. Thousands of inscriptions have been unearthed in Macedonia and their former empire and none that I know of attest to a distinct 'Macedonian' language seperate from Greek. "In Philip's kingdom, two languages were spoken: Northwest Greek, now attested in a recently discovered inscription (I don't know which one and can no longer ask professor Ruijgh, who has recently passed away); and a Macedonian language that is close to ancient Phrygian and a bit less close to Greek.An example is the /ph/ in a Greek word. In Macedonian and Phrygian, this becomes /b/. So, the people called Phrygians by the Greeks, called themselves Brygians, and Alexander's father called himself Bilippos. Hephaestion's real name was Hebaistion."Please provide the source of the hypothesis of the difference in phonetology between the /ph/ and the /b/. And yet, is their not similar differences between the Greek dialects themselves?"Personally, I would say that the consistent policy of hellenisation started by king Archelaus will have involved a linguistic element too, but there is no evidence for this hypothesis."Does not Herodotus tell us that Alexander I was already accepted as a 'Greek' prior to the reign of Archelaus? Or as ancient authors attest:"Macedonia was formerly called Emathia,... Caranus also came to Emathia with a large band of Greeks, being instructed by an oracle to seek a home in Macedonia."-JustinOr the Suda on Karanos:"One of the Heraclids,[1] he gathered an army from Greece and went into Macedonia, which at that time was an obscure place. He ruled there and handed down the rule so that it proceeded in succession all the way down to Philip."I have always been curious as to why the Macedonians decided one day

[tino]

decided one day to become "Hellenized". This irrestible urge was somehow avoided by the Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, and all the other peoples that bordered the Hellenes. One cannot say that it was for strategical reasons only as it would be safe to say that the Thracians would have had just as much incentive as the Macedonians were this the case. I suppose the plays of Euripedes must have been overwhelming! Quick, make us Hellenes!

[jona]

You make a lot of interesting points, and I cannot answer them all, especially because my guide in this field has passed away.One point is obvious, however: Macedonian, whether a Greek dialect or an independent language, was uncomprehensible to Greeks - otherwise, Kleitos would have survived.Another point is that, although we have no evidence for the syntaxis and grammar of this elusive Macedonian dialect/language, we know many words. The most interesting one is, in my view, *peliganes*, "seniors", which is used in Macedonian city foundations in Babylonia to indicate the institution otherwise (i.e., in Greek) known as *gerousia*, the council. This might suggest that people like Antigonos and Seleukos tried to maintain an appearance of "macedonianism" in their cities.I can also correct you on point: according to the Neue Pauly (a 20 volume encyclopaedia on ancient history published in 1996-2004), there ARE Macedonian inscriptions, including a defixio (curse tablet) recently found in Pella. Yet, these texts seem to offer not much information. I wish I knew more about this!Jona

[matz]

Thanks for the links Susan. From the described content of the text I find it difficult to conclude that Macedonian was close to Greek or that Macedonians were bilingual.It does not appear to tell us anything more than the current wisdom on the matter is.I presume that the text was written in Greek. Do you or anyone know which Greek was used? Such information would be indicative as to the possibility of Macedonians to had spoken a (Northern??) dialect of Greek.

[matz]

Perhaps the profesor Jona was getting his information from was refering to some other recently discovered inscriptions?

[susan]

I think there are more inscriptions, but I don't knw where they are described. However I've found that a Dr Charles Bryant-Abraham has possibly shown that Macedonian inscriptions are to be found in Dura-Europos, a Macedonian city in Syria. To quote:"Parallel to the on-going analysis of the Venetic inscriptions, a thorough search must be undertaken throughout the Balkan Peninsula for all extant lapidary evidence of its former presence there. Foremost - and I have called attention to this elsewhere - an investigation must be made of all inscriptions associated with the age of Philip of Macedon preceding the Hellenization of his son, Alexander, under the tutelage of Aristotle. The close collaboration of Macedonian and Greek scholars must be solicited and sustained for this effort. We are encouraged in this direction by the findings of Anton Ambrozic who has successfully demonstrated Venetic presence in the Hellenistic city, Dura-Europos, founded by Alexander in the Syrian desert and destroyed by the Sassanids in AD 256, some 400 years before the supposed first penetration of Slavs into the Balkan Peninsula. These Venetic inscriptions from Dura-Europos lend weighty if still circumstantial evidence to my original conjecture that Alexander and his Macedonian people may very well have been Veneti.....
Dr. Charles Bryant-Abraham - Linguist "I'll send you more details by e-mail.Susan

[marcus]

Dr Vasco,With the greatest of respect ... writing a long list of words to show their similarity in a number of languages proves absolutely nothing, particularly when it is not clear what one is actually trying to prove. Actually - forget it. I was going to give you the courtesy of a proper response, but actually I've got better things to do with my time. Perhaps a little courtesy towards other members of this forum of your part might not be amiss.Marcus

[tino]

I cannot see how the death of Kleitos is related to whether "Macedonian" was comprehensible to Greeks or not. I have yet to also see direct evidence that "Macedonian" was "uncomprehensible" to Greeks.There can be no doubt that the Macedonians proximity to other peoples, such as Thracians, Illyrians, Phrygians perhaps, did have an effect on the spoken language in terms of individual vocabularic borrowings. Yet I am sure there must be parralels within the Greek dialects themselves. This cannot be construed as evidence of an individual "Macedonian" language. In fact, did not the Greek historian (Hellanikos?)who recorded the different words make a point that they were unusual for Greek? I would be very interested in seeing the inscriptions in the "Macedonian" language as they seem to be dwarfed by the number of Greek inscriptions that have survived and continued to be unearthed in Macedonia. It will be most interesting to see the results of the excavations at Anistochoron (sp?).

[alejandro]

Thanks JonaJust one more question: do you believe that those who spoke Greek were the Temenids, while Macedonian was the language of those who lived there before the Argives arrived (assuming the myth is true)?Kind regardsAlejandro

[matz]

In relation to the word "peliganes", it may be a pure coincidence, but "pelivan" is an old style type of wrestler.