Would Alexander have gone to war against his own veterans un

[Paralus]

Jim makes an excellent point. Indeed Harparlus and his silver were in Athens. That same silver which later would fund the "Lamian War" that almost cost Antipater his Kingdom. And the question is better put as did Alexander think Atipater would attack him. My answer would be yes - emphatically. At this stage of his life I believe Alexander to be highly paranoid. He'd have trusted Antipater after his refusal to obey his King's summons about as much as I trust a funne-web spider in my boot. I believe Alexander thought it was a certainty.I do believe GÇô as Nicator has so eloquently pointed out GÇô that the Macedonians may not have had the stomach for the fight. Not so the tens of thousands of mercenaries. I think though that as Nicator suggests, it was the marshals that wanted rid of their "forever the next horizon" king. It would then be a matter of who would follow the marshals. Antipater GÇô had Alexander survived GÇô in the end would have had little choice: exile or fight. I'd suggest, given his ability to play "hardball at a distance" as Nicator puts it and his past record, he'd have fought. It would have been interesting to see which way the marshals may have lined up. As Nicator says, it would depend on the depth of their hatred or outright disillusionment. Who would old "One Eye" have backed?As has been pointed out the was no lack of mercenary Greeks who'd have taken note of the Granicus and who'd dearly have loved to remove Alexander. Athens too was never a committed "ally". Would Antipater have been able to cajole an Athenian fleet into the Aegean? Harpalus' silver would have paid for a fleet the size of which hadn't been put to sea by Athens since the glory days of the 450s to 420s. The way things were moving, war between Alexander and his regent appears (in retrospect) about as inevitable as WWII did in the mid to late thirties. The Silver Shields (after Alexander's death of course) showed had no compunctions about fighting their own nor even "shopping" their generals (having changed sides and given up the rather unfortunate Eumenes). Had this been propagandised the right way GÇô "real Macedonians and a real Macedonian regent (or king?)" defends Macedon and Macedonian mores against an overwrought, overbearing "medized" king who thinks more of himself and his Asians to whom he is giving Macedonian training etc, etc. You can see it now: overthrow the despot!Would make for an interesting "what if" novel if nothing else!Paralus.

[Paralus]

Jim makes an excellent point. Indeed Harparlus and his silver were in Athens. That same silver which later would fund the "Lamian War" that almost cost Antipater his Kingdom. And the question is better put as did Alexander think Atipater would attack him. My answer would be yes - emphatically. At this stage of his life I believe Alexander to be highly paranoid. He'd have trusted Antipater after his refusal to obey his King's summons about as much as I trust a funne-web spider in my boot. I believe Alexander thought it was a certainty.I do believe GÇô as Nicator has so eloquently pointed out GÇô that the Macedonians may not have had the stomach for the fight. Not so the tens of thousands of mercenaries. I think though that as Nicator suggests, it was the marshals that wanted rid of their "forever the next horizon" king. It would then be a matter of who would follow the marshals. Antipater GÇô had Alexander survived GÇô in the end would have had little choice: exile or fight. I'd suggest, given his ability to play "hardball at a distance" as Nicator puts it and his past record, he'd have fought. It would have been interesting to see which way the marshals may have lined up. As Nicator says, it would depend on the depth of their hatred or outright disillusionment. Who would old "One Eye" have backed?As has been pointed out the was no lack of mercenary Greeks who'd have taken note of the Granicus and who'd dearly have loved to remove Alexander. Athens too was never a committed "ally". Would Antipater have been able to cajole an Athenian fleet into the Aegean? Harpalus' silver would have paid for a fleet the size of which hadn't been put to sea by Athens since the glory days of the 450s to 420s. The way things were moving, war between Alexander and his regent appears (in retrospect) about as inevitable as WWII did in the mid to late thirties. The Silver Shields (after Alexander's death of course) showed had no compunctions about fighting their own nor even "shopping" their generals (having changed sides and given up the rather unfortunate Eumenes). Had this been propagandised the right way GÇô "real Macedonians and a real Macedonian regent (or king?)" defends Macedon and Macedonian mores against an overwrought, overbearing "medized" king who thinks more of himself and his Asians to whom he is giving Macedonian training etc, etc. You can see it now: overthrow the despot!Would make for an interesting "what if" novel if nothing else!Paralus.

[kenny]

Sorry Michael I Disagree with everything you say. You opnionate Alexander the most disliked boy around and everyone wanted rid of him.The only people that wanted rid werevthe over self imporatnce commanders fearing there loot been taken away and there lives altered.THe Athenian Fleet you say would be enormous. Alexander Already had over aA thousand ships Traveled Back from India under Nearchus. He was planning huge harbours in babylon to strike out.The Silver shields through Tradition were loyal to the King.Where The Athenians or Greeks to get involved.That would swing more Macedonians to Alexander I am sure. Greekship for centuries unreliable and waresome.Macedonians would not stand with Greeks against Alexander I am sure of it.Can you ever Imagine Macedonian Phalanx been gobbed at by Demosthenese?Kenny.I would wager Macedonian Distain for snoppy high mindeed Greeks was as equal to the way they felt towards Persians.Alexander nor the Macedonians ever trusted the Greeks.Kenny

[kenny]

Sorry Michael I Disagree with everything you say. You opnionate Alexander the most disliked boy around and everyone wanted rid of him.The only people that wanted rid werevthe over self imporatnce commanders fearing there loot been taken away and there lives altered.THe Athenian Fleet you say would be enormous. Alexander Already had over aA thousand ships Traveled Back from India under Nearchus. He was planning huge harbours in babylon to strike out.The Silver shields through Tradition were loyal to the King.Where The Athenians or Greeks to get involved.That would swing more Macedonians to Alexander I am sure. Greekship for centuries unreliable and waresome.Macedonians would not stand with Greeks against Alexander I am sure of it.Can you ever Imagine Macedonian Phalanx been gobbed at by Demosthenese?Kenny.I would wager Macedonian Distain for snoppy high mindeed Greeks was as equal to the way they felt towards Persians.Alexander nor the Macedonians ever trusted the Greeks.Kenny

[Nicator]

"Who would old "One Eye" have backed?" A compelling question indeed! For those few pothosians even less informed than me, you're referring to Antigonus...correct? I'm afraid my grasp of the close-post Alexander Hellenistic era is not quite up to the task to respond with a better, more informed answer (either on Antigonus or the Silver Shields). But if you keep this up, I may just have to go out and get "Alexander to Actium" to get up to speed. As your grasp of the material is impressive and your posts insightful.I liked Jim's analysis as well. Most of what I've taken from the source material is that the heat in Persis and Babylon was overbearing, so Alexander headed north to Ectbatana. It would be very Alexander-like to move there, not because of the heat, but because of some strategic initiative. This is the guy that bothered to plan the Indus river trip with a delaying scheme to make sure nothing got by him. Every move was calculated, every move had a purpose (and sometimes several). later Nicator

[Nicator]

"Who would old "One Eye" have backed?" A compelling question indeed! For those few pothosians even less informed than me, you're referring to Antigonus...correct? I'm afraid my grasp of the close-post Alexander Hellenistic era is not quite up to the task to respond with a better, more informed answer (either on Antigonus or the Silver Shields). But if you keep this up, I may just have to go out and get "Alexander to Actium" to get up to speed. As your grasp of the material is impressive and your posts insightful.I liked Jim's analysis as well. Most of what I've taken from the source material is that the heat in Persis and Babylon was overbearing, so Alexander headed north to Ectbatana. It would be very Alexander-like to move there, not because of the heat, but because of some strategic initiative. This is the guy that bothered to plan the Indus river trip with a delaying scheme to make sure nothing got by him. Every move was calculated, every move had a purpose (and sometimes several). later Nicator

[Paralus]

Yes indeed Nicator, Antigonus Manopthalmus Was indeed the "Old One Eye" referred to. And thank you for the kind words re posts GÇô much reading, perhaps too much reading over the years.It is often forgotten when writing about Alexander and that ten years that so changed the world that much of what he accomplished would not have been possible without that irascible old marshal Antigonus. Along with Parmenio and Antipater, he was one of the "old guard" and the rock that Alexander relied on to protect his back. Whilst Alexander marched off looking for Darius (and being found by Darius at Issus) it was old "One Eye" back in Anatolia fighting major rear guard actions right the way through to Gaugemela that kept Alexander's rear and supply lines open. Who would he have supported? Himself in the end (as he did). It would depend on where he felt his best chance lay. Remember this one of the very few who actually had a dash at uniting the entire empire under himself after Alexander's death, only failing when his silly bloody son Demetrius Poliorcetes pressed their advantage too far with victory plainly in sight and detaching himself from the phalanx exposed it utterly, leaving poor old Monopthalmus dead on the field at 82 (from memory).The others (and this more for Kenny) were plainly sick and tired of traipsing the world and for the most part (apart from Perdiccas) would dearly loved to have settled down with a "quarter empire". This is indeed what Ptolemy and Seleucus (eventually) did. In fact it was all Ptolemy wanted. Alexander was not widely loved in his time GÇô especially by a very tired high command and most especially by the Greeks. I think Monopthalmus may well have seen advantage in supporting Antipater had it come to war.Nicator, you should read "Alexander to Actium". It is by far the best single tome on the period. It is highly readable (as one would expect from Green) excellently sourced and annotated (providing a veritable library of Congress of further reading). Best of all, the treatment of the "hard bitten Marshals of empire" is worth the price. Chapter one: "Alexander's funeral games" sets the tone from the start.Paralus.

[Paralus]

Yes indeed Nicator, Antigonus Manopthalmus Was indeed the "Old One Eye" referred to. And thank you for the kind words re posts GÇô much reading, perhaps too much reading over the years.It is often forgotten when writing about Alexander and that ten years that so changed the world that much of what he accomplished would not have been possible without that irascible old marshal Antigonus. Along with Parmenio and Antipater, he was one of the "old guard" and the rock that Alexander relied on to protect his back. Whilst Alexander marched off looking for Darius (and being found by Darius at Issus) it was old "One Eye" back in Anatolia fighting major rear guard actions right the way through to Gaugemela that kept Alexander's rear and supply lines open. Who would he have supported? Himself in the end (as he did). It would depend on where he felt his best chance lay. Remember this one of the very few who actually had a dash at uniting the entire empire under himself after Alexander's death, only failing when his silly bloody son Demetrius Poliorcetes pressed their advantage too far with victory plainly in sight and detaching himself from the phalanx exposed it utterly, leaving poor old Monopthalmus dead on the field at 82 (from memory).The others (and this more for Kenny) were plainly sick and tired of traipsing the world and for the most part (apart from Perdiccas) would dearly loved to have settled down with a "quarter empire". This is indeed what Ptolemy and Seleucus (eventually) did. In fact it was all Ptolemy wanted. Alexander was not widely loved in his time GÇô especially by a very tired high command and most especially by the Greeks. I think Monopthalmus may well have seen advantage in supporting Antipater had it come to war.Nicator, you should read "Alexander to Actium". It is by far the best single tome on the period. It is highly readable (as one would expect from Green) excellently sourced and annotated (providing a veritable library of Congress of further reading). Best of all, the treatment of the "hard bitten Marshals of empire" is worth the price. Chapter one: "Alexander's funeral games" sets the tone from the start.Paralus.

[Jim Boudreaux]

I too thank you for the kind words and agree with Paralus that 'Alexander to Actium' is the book to get. Alexander, I think, had already begun hostilities. The Exiles Decree undermining the political regimes Antipater had supported reduced the number of allies he could rely on. The order to disband the Anatolian mercenaries had depleted potential allies such as Antigonus from providing any quantity of support. This would have left Antipater with Athens and the Aetolians as likely allies along with Seuthes in Thrace. Combined, these could have had given Antipater a military strength capable of reasonably challenging Alexander on land and sea, so I don't think Antipater would have hesitated to face him. Antigonus allied himself with Antipater following Alexander's death. The context of this was the push by Olympias to secure the elimination of Antipater through the seduction of Perdiccas to marry Cleopatra and himself sieze the throne. Antigonus threw his support behind the legitimate authority of the Macedonian kingship. This may give us the insight to determine on which side of the struggle he would have come down on if Alexander had attacked Antipater. Did Alexander any longer represent the traditional legitimacy of the Macedonian kingship? It was Philip's legacy versus Alexander's new world order.

[Jim Boudreaux]

I too thank you for the kind words and agree with Paralus that 'Alexander to Actium' is the book to get. Alexander, I think, had already begun hostilities. The Exiles Decree undermining the political regimes Antipater had supported reduced the number of allies he could rely on. The order to disband the Anatolian mercenaries had depleted potential allies such as Antigonus from providing any quantity of support. This would have left Antipater with Athens and the Aetolians as likely allies along with Seuthes in Thrace. Combined, these could have had given Antipater a military strength capable of reasonably challenging Alexander on land and sea, so I don't think Antipater would have hesitated to face him. Antigonus allied himself with Antipater following Alexander's death. The context of this was the push by Olympias to secure the elimination of Antipater through the seduction of Perdiccas to marry Cleopatra and himself sieze the throne. Antigonus threw his support behind the legitimate authority of the Macedonian kingship. This may give us the insight to determine on which side of the struggle he would have come down on if Alexander had attacked Antipater. Did Alexander any longer represent the traditional legitimacy of the Macedonian kingship? It was Philip's legacy versus Alexander's new world order.

[Jim Boudreaux]

As for the Silver Shields it should be realized that the 10,000 vetrans with Craterus did not include the Siver Shields. They were with Perdiccas from Babylon through Cappadocia against Ariarathes and into Phrygia and Egypt. At Tripardaisos they were dispatched by Antipater to Susa to retrieve the treasury and escort it to Cilicia. It was there that Eumenes enrolled them following his escape from Nora. From there they went east and joined with Peucestas who had united the eastern satraps to oppose Peithon's incursions. In subsequent battle they exchanged their commander and Eumenes for their families and possessions which had been captured by Antigonus. This is not a mark against the Silver Shields for who among us would not have done the same? Throughout their active service they served the legitimate authority under their kings regardless of which of the Marshals found it convenient to do likewise. They would never have had to choose to battle Alexander or not for they were always with him and would have followed him into battle.

[Jim Boudreaux]

As for the Silver Shields it should be realized that the 10,000 vetrans with Craterus did not include the Siver Shields. They were with Perdiccas from Babylon through Cappadocia against Ariarathes and into Phrygia and Egypt. At Tripardaisos they were dispatched by Antipater to Susa to retrieve the treasury and escort it to Cilicia. It was there that Eumenes enrolled them following his escape from Nora. From there they went east and joined with Peucestas who had united the eastern satraps to oppose Peithon's incursions. In subsequent battle they exchanged their commander and Eumenes for their families and possessions which had been captured by Antigonus. This is not a mark against the Silver Shields for who among us would not have done the same? Throughout their active service they served the legitimate authority under their kings regardless of which of the Marshals found it convenient to do likewise. They would never have had to choose to battle Alexander or not for they were always with him and would have followed him into battle.

[kenny]

Jim HailI like your phrase new world order. A phrase and rhetoric Ive always put towards Alexander.Indeed his was new world order than as you say The Macedonian Elite Despised. The Macedonians were as Elitist and probably as racist as there Southern neighbours.The Idea of giving the Persians and easterners one hell of a kicking. Then Alexander deciding every one was equal and gave more back than any other conqueror in History.I agree the Silver shield layalty thing was sacred and based on the Hegemon of the king. Maybe they wouldnt liked Alexanders New world order but indeed. The Silver shield were simialr to the Pretorian guard the most trusted of the Kings soldiers.One thing overlooked. If Alexab
nder went against Antipater. Where would Ptolemy and his succesors stand. To say these people generals missed Macedonia none were keen to return following Alexander. If they were so deep rooted Macedonian why was Ptolemy so rooted to Egypt.These guys just didnt like the new world order nor the idea of one day been replaced.Kenny

[kenny]

Jim HailI like your phrase new world order. A phrase and rhetoric Ive always put towards Alexander.Indeed his was new world order than as you say The Macedonian Elite Despised. The Macedonians were as Elitist and probably as racist as there Southern neighbours.The Idea of giving the Persians and easterners one hell of a kicking. Then Alexander deciding every one was equal and gave more back than any other conqueror in History.I agree the Silver shield layalty thing was sacred and based on the Hegemon of the king. Maybe they wouldnt liked Alexanders New world order but indeed. The Silver shield were simialr to the Pretorian guard the most trusted of the Kings soldiers.One thing overlooked. If Alexab
nder went against Antipater. Where would Ptolemy and his succesors stand. To say these people generals missed Macedonia none were keen to return following Alexander. If they were so deep rooted Macedonian why was Ptolemy so rooted to Egypt.These guys just didnt like the new world order nor the idea of one day been replaced.Kenny

[Paralus]

"Did Alexander any longer represent the traditional legitimacy of the Macedonian kingship? It was Philip's legacy versus Alexander's new world order."Ah Jim, you're a man after my own reading! This goes to the entire heart of the situation. What needs to be remembered is the relentless removal of the "Old guard" that Alexander had felt comfortable enough to engage in from Gaugemela on. This had everything to do with removing his father's "ghost" from both the army and Alexander's consciousness. Philip, before Heracles and anyone else, was the competition Alexander was engaged in. By extension, marshals such as Parmenio, Antipater, Antigonus and the like were seen as connected to that ghost.Dead right with respect to the "Silver Shields" as well. Always first among the "foot companions" they were the King's corps as the companion cavalry was on horse. As you point out it comes down to the "legitimate Macedonian King" question. Alexander was as far removed from the traditional idea of a Macedonian king as was the Persian he so dearly aped in many aspects (by the time of his death). It was acclamation of the army that provided that legitimacy. Alexander had well and truly tested that acclamation by the time of his death. That is not to say the army GÇô put to the test GÇô would not have re-affirmed that acclamation, but it would have been interesting to see.Yes, Monopthalmus immediately allied himself with Antipater (as regent) after Alexander's death GÇô but always with the main prize in his one eye, as subsequent events would show. Athens, as Polircetes' attentions would show, was central to any successful bid at empire GÇô indeed Philip's actions demonstrate the same.Kenny, I think you're getting there: senior Macedonians (not to say vast numbers of the army) were well and truly tired of the sops to the Persians. The new world order was not what they'd set out to achieve all those years back.Ptolemy would have GÇô as he indeed did GÇô stayed in Egypt. Here was a man well aware of his boundaries and ambitions. Aside from the constant running sore (for the Ptolemys) of Coele-Syria, he was happy to be Pharaoh of an Egyptian "Empire". The other marshals were a different case. It could be argued most wanted the lot GÇô certainly Monopthalmus did GÇô but all were tired of endless marches to the ends of the earth and rather impatient with this new Iranian Alexander.Paralus.