Would Alexander have gone to war against his own veterans un

[Paralus]

Since the original thread has sipped off the edge of the site's flat earth, Nicator posed this question which I found most interesting:"As a counter-question, had Alexander survived, would he have gone to war against his own veterans under Antipater?" In answer to your question Nicator (which will slip away soon): absolutely. Do you reckon Antipater had the ticker? I think maybe.I firmly believe Antipater was summoned to Babylon to be "relieved" (murdered) - something he well knew. Had Alexander survived the "Diodochi wars" may have begun anyway.Nicator, another counter question: would the "Silver Shields" have taken the field against their King??
Paralus

[kenny]

Micheal HailI dont think the Silver shields nor His armay would take the field with Antipater.I am convinced that the main discord and irritance against Alexander where indeed his commanders and bosses. They had there loot and didnt like the idea giving it back nor the changes Alexander had in mind.I dont think Antipater nor the Generals would have dared take him on. Antipater with his own Macedonians and Pesky greeks against a more Modern and adapted army than the one that embarked with Alexander years ago.Trained in Guerila war. Hit and run Blitz Crieg tactics and the works against The Greek Traditional ways. And of course the unequaled war crafttsmen ever. Still modernising inovating getting better and tougher.I would even think Alexander would relish the opportunity to put down once and for all the old guard and from there total world conquest.By the time Alexander was back in Babylon emiseries from the world over sent ambasadors and reps to gain good favour with Alexander fearing his gaze towards them.These Included Rome and carthage.I dont agree Alexander summoned Antipater to Babylon to kill him.Antipater in my opinion served Alexander well. I firmly believe Alexander was all about change and was basically in person Gonna say thanks Antipater but im retiring you.Only my thoughts.But in a war Alexander would have squashed Greece and Antipater like. Germany rolled through Chzechoslovakia.kenny

[kenny]

Micheal HailI dont think the Silver shields nor His armay would take the field with Antipater.I am convinced that the main discord and irritance against Alexander where indeed his commanders and bosses. They had there loot and didnt like the idea giving it back nor the changes Alexander had in mind.I dont think Antipater nor the Generals would have dared take him on. Antipater with his own Macedonians and Pesky greeks against a more Modern and adapted army than the one that embarked with Alexander years ago.Trained in Guerila war. Hit and run Blitz Crieg tactics and the works against The Greek Traditional ways. And of course the unequaled war crafttsmen ever. Still modernising inovating getting better and tougher.I would even think Alexander would relish the opportunity to put down once and for all the old guard and from there total world conquest.By the time Alexander was back in Babylon emiseries from the world over sent ambasadors and reps to gain good favour with Alexander fearing his gaze towards them.These Included Rome and carthage.I dont agree Alexander summoned Antipater to Babylon to kill him.Antipater in my opinion served Alexander well. I firmly believe Alexander was all about change and was basically in person Gonna say thanks Antipater but im retiring you.Only my thoughts.But in a war Alexander would have squashed Greece and Antipater like. Germany rolled through Chzechoslovakia.kenny

[Paralus]

I think Antipater could "go to school" on the experience of Parmenio. I believe he knew what was coming - the last of his father's trusted coterie and confidants - a smile, a pat on the back and a dirk between the ribs.Two questions: does anyone think - as evidently do I - that Craterus and Polyperchon were carrying orders similar to those issued to Parmenio's last visitors? (Remember Antipater had refused an order to attend Alexander in Baghdad, sending in his stead Cassander)Were you Antipater, having seen your contemporaries purged (like Parmenio), what would you make of Craterus leading in excess of 10,000 battle hardened and vastly expreienced troops back to Macedon ostensibly for "retirement"?

[Paralus]

I think Antipater could "go to school" on the experience of Parmenio. I believe he knew what was coming - the last of his father's trusted coterie and confidants - a smile, a pat on the back and a dirk between the ribs.Two questions: does anyone think - as evidently do I - that Craterus and Polyperchon were carrying orders similar to those issued to Parmenio's last visitors? (Remember Antipater had refused an order to attend Alexander in Baghdad, sending in his stead Cassander)Were you Antipater, having seen your contemporaries purged (like Parmenio), what would you make of Craterus leading in excess of 10,000 battle hardened and vastly expreienced troops back to Macedon ostensibly for "retirement"?

[kenny]

Michael Hail
I maybe the only one that think Antipater was not at risk. If the risk was so why send his own son if he thought execution imminent.Parmenio in my opinion was always an urk to Alexander.The reliable old guard between him his veterans and his father with the added Complication of Philotas Forever mouthing and trumping up his own importance. I guess Philotas was high on the list of unliked people amongst Alexanders close companions. No one defended him and gleed at carving up his power.Once the conspiracy involving Philotas true or false It became legitimate for Alexander to take out Parmenio wether we like it or not. Would Parmenio accept his sons execution stay loyal to Alexander etc I feel not.Alexander had no legitimate reason to take out Antipater at all. That would in my opinion tarnish Alexander much more than what he did to Parmenio.Antipater held Macedonia and Greece in loyal good stead whilst Alexander was away.We have no hint whatsoever about discord or Alexander been upset with him.All we hear is Olympius putting thge boot on and fair to say Alexander was not stupid to take his mothers tittle tattle seriously.Kenny

[kenny]

Michael Hail
I maybe the only one that think Antipater was not at risk. If the risk was so why send his own son if he thought execution imminent.Parmenio in my opinion was always an urk to Alexander.The reliable old guard between him his veterans and his father with the added Complication of Philotas Forever mouthing and trumping up his own importance. I guess Philotas was high on the list of unliked people amongst Alexanders close companions. No one defended him and gleed at carving up his power.Once the conspiracy involving Philotas true or false It became legitimate for Alexander to take out Parmenio wether we like it or not. Would Parmenio accept his sons execution stay loyal to Alexander etc I feel not.Alexander had no legitimate reason to take out Antipater at all. That would in my opinion tarnish Alexander much more than what he did to Parmenio.Antipater held Macedonia and Greece in loyal good stead whilst Alexander was away.We have no hint whatsoever about discord or Alexander been upset with him.All we hear is Olympius putting thge boot on and fair to say Alexander was not stupid to take his mothers tittle tattle seriously.Kenny

[Nicator]

Hello Paralus,
"I firmly believe Antipater was summoned to Babylon to be "relieved" (murdered) - something he well knew. Had Alexander survived the "Diodochi wars" may have begun anyway. Nicator, another counter question: would the "Silver Shields" have taken the field against their King??" I can't help get the feeling, particularly after burrowing through the last months of Alexander's forlorn life, that he was vastly out of touch with his men. If anything could have confirmed this it would have been his veterans (even the physically fit) leaving en masse after the mutiny at Opis. As I mentioned before, I suspect it surprised him, and must have left him feeling more than a bit vulnerable, if not altogether weak. Another point that comes to mind is Alexander's reaction to Cassander's faux pas before his bowing Persians. Surely Alexander was upset, not under the pretense of an insolent act, but because Cassander's presence signified Antipater's reluctance to venture within range. The implication is that Alexander was lashing out against Antipater, not Cassander. Cassander merely got the brunt of his boiling anger. By Cassander coming in Antipater's stead it, in a way, tipped his hand. He knew damn well what the real crux of the summons was all about...his likely termination, and Alexander now knew that Antipater knew it as well. His opportunity was dashed. Antipater proved himself capable of playing hardball against the most powerful man alive from a distance. But would he have gone to war with the cream of Alexander's veterans, combined with his own fresh troops and those of the willing (perhaps) Greeks to finish Alexander...oh what a tantalizing thought. At that point, only money could have saved him (which he was dispensing in abundance to his veterans, perhaps as peace money, i.e...you will all be taken care of in my stead forever, but if something happens to me, you'll die broke), and even that would be iffy, as many mercenaries wouldn't take any more money if it meant working for Alexander. He burned bridges that could never be rebuilt in Sogdia, India, Gedrosia, and Babylon. He was a master card player, but like anyone who plays long enough will tell you...it's not a matter of if your luck will run out, but when. It's a question that teaters on the incredible power and lure of Alexander's charisma versus the raw quantity of those who despised him and the depth of their hatred.
cont'd...

[Nicator]

Hello Paralus,
"I firmly believe Antipater was summoned to Babylon to be "relieved" (murdered) - something he well knew. Had Alexander survived the "Diodochi wars" may have begun anyway. Nicator, another counter question: would the "Silver Shields" have taken the field against their King??" I can't help get the feeling, particularly after burrowing through the last months of Alexander's forlorn life, that he was vastly out of touch with his men. If anything could have confirmed this it would have been his veterans (even the physically fit) leaving en masse after the mutiny at Opis. As I mentioned before, I suspect it surprised him, and must have left him feeling more than a bit vulnerable, if not altogether weak. Another point that comes to mind is Alexander's reaction to Cassander's faux pas before his bowing Persians. Surely Alexander was upset, not under the pretense of an insolent act, but because Cassander's presence signified Antipater's reluctance to venture within range. The implication is that Alexander was lashing out against Antipater, not Cassander. Cassander merely got the brunt of his boiling anger. By Cassander coming in Antipater's stead it, in a way, tipped his hand. He knew damn well what the real crux of the summons was all about...his likely termination, and Alexander now knew that Antipater knew it as well. His opportunity was dashed. Antipater proved himself capable of playing hardball against the most powerful man alive from a distance. But would he have gone to war with the cream of Alexander's veterans, combined with his own fresh troops and those of the willing (perhaps) Greeks to finish Alexander...oh what a tantalizing thought. At that point, only money could have saved him (which he was dispensing in abundance to his veterans, perhaps as peace money, i.e...you will all be taken care of in my stead forever, but if something happens to me, you'll die broke), and even that would be iffy, as many mercenaries wouldn't take any more money if it meant working for Alexander. He burned bridges that could never be rebuilt in Sogdia, India, Gedrosia, and Babylon. He was a master card player, but like anyone who plays long enough will tell you...it's not a matter of if your luck will run out, but when. It's a question that teaters on the incredible power and lure of Alexander's charisma versus the raw quantity of those who despised him and the depth of their hatred.
cont'd...

[Nicator]

Hello Paralus,
cont'd...
As my own counterpoint; we should not forget the soldiers that broke into Olympias home and, seeing Alexander in his mother's face, couldn't execute her. This suggests that he wasn't hated as much as the Borza/Green camp would have us believe. In my mind the whole scenario gives more credence to the poison theory. His men weren't likely to attack Alexander, (as the love fest after the mutiny so succintly elucidated) only some of his top men wanted to be rid of him, and nobody, as Kenny will attest to, had the balls to take him on in a pitched battle. It would take an insidious act to solve the problem, as Alexander was two steps ahead of the pack, politically in this case, and had the military end of it neatly cornered, I would suspect, at least since Guagamela, and perhaps long before cemented at Issus. His men loved him, but were war weary. Going back to war, any kind of war, was not high on their agenda. Seeing home and loved ones was. Going to war against Alexander, I suspect, would have made many a man's blood run cold. later Nicator

[Nicator]

Hello Paralus,
cont'd...
As my own counterpoint; we should not forget the soldiers that broke into Olympias home and, seeing Alexander in his mother's face, couldn't execute her. This suggests that he wasn't hated as much as the Borza/Green camp would have us believe. In my mind the whole scenario gives more credence to the poison theory. His men weren't likely to attack Alexander, (as the love fest after the mutiny so succintly elucidated) only some of his top men wanted to be rid of him, and nobody, as Kenny will attest to, had the balls to take him on in a pitched battle. It would take an insidious act to solve the problem, as Alexander was two steps ahead of the pack, politically in this case, and had the military end of it neatly cornered, I would suspect, at least since Guagamela, and perhaps long before cemented at Issus. His men loved him, but were war weary. Going back to war, any kind of war, was not high on their agenda. Seeing home and loved ones was. Going to war against Alexander, I suspect, would have made many a man's blood run cold. later Nicator

[kenny]

Nick HailI would say by this time the memories of India were months behing.It was 6 Months since Hepheastion died.I would say they were all having a pretty nice time in the sun partying relaxing finally enjoying the spoils. And in no way did his soldiers hate him.On his death bed thousands yearned to see him and marched passed him with tears.A campaign for Alexander in Greece against Antipater would be a bus mans holiday. At home with there king doing what they do best. The idea that they yearned for home family etc. I feel that theory over stated they were proffesional trained hardened soldiers. A week or two at home with the wife they would have become borred stiff yearning for action. Soon as Alexander died they were warring over the scraps of Alexanders table.The question would Alexander go to war against his own. If they declaired war its his nature to go war. We wouldnt say lets negotiate sort it out like adults. Hed strap on the sword and say lets go we all know than. And I for one thing he would have relished the thought.He had the money the soldiers and resourses to dop the job once and for all.kenny

[kenny]

Nick HailI would say by this time the memories of India were months behing.It was 6 Months since Hepheastion died.I would say they were all having a pretty nice time in the sun partying relaxing finally enjoying the spoils. And in no way did his soldiers hate him.On his death bed thousands yearned to see him and marched passed him with tears.A campaign for Alexander in Greece against Antipater would be a bus mans holiday. At home with there king doing what they do best. The idea that they yearned for home family etc. I feel that theory over stated they were proffesional trained hardened soldiers. A week or two at home with the wife they would have become borred stiff yearning for action. Soon as Alexander died they were warring over the scraps of Alexanders table.The question would Alexander go to war against his own. If they declaired war its his nature to go war. We wouldnt say lets negotiate sort it out like adults. Hed strap on the sword and say lets go we all know than. And I for one thing he would have relished the thought.He had the money the soldiers and resourses to dop the job once and for all.kenny

[Jim Boudreaux]

The question is did Alexander think Antipater would fight him. It may have been put out that Craterus was heading to Macedonia, but where he went was Cilicia, site of a treasury and a large fleet. In Alexanders life he moved no closer to Macedonia. From Opis Alexander moved to Ecbatana putting himself between Antipater and 23,000 Greeks then marching home in rebellion against him. By then Harpalus had arrived in Athens with enough money to hire a very large body of mercenaries. The Athenians and Aetolians were restless as it was. If war with Antipater had come, Alexander could not have been better positioned to deal with him on land and sea. Then Hephaestion died. Alexander withdrew to Babylon in grief and Antipater's life was saved.

[Jim Boudreaux]

The question is did Alexander think Antipater would fight him. It may have been put out that Craterus was heading to Macedonia, but where he went was Cilicia, site of a treasury and a large fleet. In Alexanders life he moved no closer to Macedonia. From Opis Alexander moved to Ecbatana putting himself between Antipater and 23,000 Greeks then marching home in rebellion against him. By then Harpalus had arrived in Athens with enough money to hire a very large body of mercenaries. The Athenians and Aetolians were restless as it was. If war with Antipater had come, Alexander could not have been better positioned to deal with him on land and sea. Then Hephaestion died. Alexander withdrew to Babylon in grief and Antipater's life was saved.